SPEAKER_02 0:00

On this episode of the Hospital Dojo podcast, I'm joined by Rebecca Javi Gibbs and Andy Elbeya, co-founders of Example. Since 2017, they've launched more than 100 venues across five countries, uniting branding, public relations, social media, and placemaking. With experience spanning Merivale's expansion, international PR, and years of brand building, Rebecca and Andy share with me what it takes to create hospitality identities that stay fresh and relevant.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Rebecca, Andy, you uh you have an amazing agency.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

And it's something that I've always uh every time I've met someone in hospo and we've you know someone's always seen, you know, start talking about branding or or PR or um anything in the world of of communication, um, your name's sort of been floating. Like, oh yeah, we we're gonna have a conversation with these guys, or have you heard of these guys? And I'm like, yeah, actually I know Andy, I know Andy really well. Um I've known him for many years, and we go way back through our families. We know, yeah. Um, and it's beautiful to see that you guys have been able to grow this amazing brand um and a space now in Rushcutter's Bay that you have. Uh I'd just love to, you know, sort of unpack a little bit more about how you got into uh what you guys do today and what is Example.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, so um Example is a creative agency, um, and I guess to help hospitality owners and other people um understand what we do, we work with um hospitality brands, food and beverage brands to go beyond just um uh serving food and drinks, but actually really understanding like who they are and how they can build better relationships with their customers. Now, there's lots of great venues that serve really, really great food and drink, um, have beautiful venues. I mean that's the standard now in Australia. So, how do they go that extra mile to actually you know create value and get that customer to come back time and time again, talk about them and really sort of like elevate the cultural side, guys?

SPEAKER_03 2:11

And Rebecca, what do you uh how did you find what how did you guys come up with a name example?

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Well, so Andy and I have a long-standing um history. We have been good friends and work colleagues for what nearly 20 years now, which is slightly terrifying. But um, yeah, so when we launched the agency, we were sort of um coming up with different names, and um I just simply took the last letter of the first letter of his last name, E, and the last letter of mine, Gibbs. Um, and E G, I'm like, example.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And then it sort of resonated with a really um great quote that we found from Albert Einstein, which is um The only way to implement uh hold on, the only way to lead by example is setting example is not the main means of influencing, it's the only means.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

And so it felt like it was we don't often often use that quote, so that's why it didn't come straight to memory. But um it's yeah, we we just felt it was easy, it was the one word, um, and you want to lead by example, right? Like that's the sort of the standard that we want to set um for our clients. So and how many years has it been? Eight years this month, um, which is extraordinary.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Um so you worked together for 20 years prior to prior to like minus eight years, you guys were together for like 12 years in a in like your different work areas.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Where did you guys meet? I first met Becky. Um I was working for Keys and Hospitality Um in their marketing department, Becky as a young buck at 20, and I was 21. Um, probably doing jobs that were way bigger than where we were in our age, was um working in a PR agency, a Sally Burley PR. Um, and we worked very, very closely together. And and at that point I was like, Becky is the best publicist in the country. Um brilliant work, and um Becky escaped over to London. Yeah. And what were we doing with that?

SPEAKER_04 4:05

I was in London for um a number of years doing lots of incredible festivals, bands, music, The Rolling Stones, you may have heard of them. Um lots of incredible festivals in Hyde Park. We did um the London Olympics. Well, did some work with Prince Charles. Amazing, it's a good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

So, you know, just on that, I find that expats that go from like, and I've seen my own personal friends in their professional careers, they get to a point in Australia where they stagnate, but the minute they go to London, it's like they get elevated, but it's vice versa back. So it's like it's like an accent thing. I don't know if they love the accent. I but that's what I always pitch it to them. They just love that different.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

They do love Aussies in in the UK. I think anything, it's like you're exposed to different um perspectives and ways of doing things, and I think that um sort of hunger to explore and get out of what you know is what sort of inspires and you know pushes you forward, and I think that's really important. But yeah, we I was there for a number of years, and Andy at that time was marketing director of Merivale. Well and um uh invited me back, said want to move back to Sydney. And I was like, okay, only for this opportunity, let's do it. And I came on um to Maryval as head of PR.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Amazing. And how was it at Merivale? Incredible, incredible, some of the best years of our life. We um learned so much, we got to work on so many projects. We started there on 20 venues and finished on 75 venues, and very much part of the senior leadership team there, and um really helping Justin create what these venues were going to be, really expanding beyond the Sydney City into communities, um, building out the Marivelle brand to being this reputable hospitality business that it is today, and um being a part of like creating a venue, launching a venue, um, seeing that venue come to life and making it successful, um, and also building the Marivelle brand along with it.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

And I think one of the most inspiring things about the time we had at Marie Val was the fact that there were already always so many brilliant minds around the table, and it was how you brought together brand and comms and operations and culinary talent and interiors and how that world was created was so inspiring, and yeah, you lit we lived and breathed it, and it was an incredible opportunity for both of us.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

I mean, there was just so many stories to tell, and that's a marketer's dream, and so how you articulate those stories, how do you actually you know develop the unique points of difference in those stories and package it to make the customer really, really interested was was a big part of our job.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Yeah. Was there one project that you two worked on together and then you had that feeling of an aha moment? Where like, oh this is it.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

Of the synergy between the two.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Yeah, like I know you guys had the synergy before when when you know you were working together, but uh like between two different companies, but when you were working at Maryvale, there could have been one project where you just like locked minds and were like, This is it.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Um I think the groundbreaking moment when when's when I think we had a colleague of ours working at a uh a big beverage brand um make a comment to us being like, Would you guys do this on the side um and help us out? That that's when it sparked something around maybe we could do this outside of the business. So um that was um as part of uh my role there, I was heading up commercial, and that was working with a lot of the big alcohol companies along with other brands that um wanted to bring to life their brands within Merivale and use it as a channel to be able to engage with Merivale's audiences. And so we would develop strategies and ideas to do that very differently rather than just putting up lots of signage and lots of POS in the venue. How can we creatively come up with different events, moments, content that really kind of leveraged a lot of our talent and a lot of Merivale's venues, etc., in with how we actually grew brands like Moet Annecy and Pernot Ricard and a lot of those venues. And I guess we were doing it very differently than um lots of other groups in the market, and and and that kind of sparked a bit of interest on the beverage side, and one comment kind of led to us creating example many years after.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

I think you know, we are so blessed, Andy and I, to have this incredible partnership, which has just been sort of so natural and um and I think rare, right? You know, we have implicit trust, um, the utmost respect for each other. We recognise in each other what we don't have in ourselves, and I think the ability to just be able to bring that together constantly and to push the best out of each other has just been a very natural thing for us. So we never really I can't sort of remember a time where well now I can't remember a time we haven't worked together, um, but where it just didn't feel like a very natural um fit for us.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

And what do you think is, you know, the a lot of a lot of people go into business in partnerships and there are successful ones and they're really horrible ones. Yeah. What's one piece of advice you'd give around, you know, how to keep that, you know, that that partnership sort of alive? And you said that that that the trust was a big thing, yeah, right. But is there is there something that you know you you you could you could you could share on?

SPEAKER_04 9:26

I think for m me, I'm gonna speak for both of us here, but we are both very committed to our own personal development. And I think, you know, through the process of that, we recognise our triggers, we recognise like our defenses, we recognise like, you know, we know how to push each other's buttons, but we know why those buttons are there to exit, you know, in the first place, and what that's saying about, you know, our own insecurities or whatever it is. And so we're constantly having that own dialogue with ourselves around like what we're doing to grow. And I think in order for us to sort of really strengthen our relationships, we're very open and vulnerable and share all of those learnings with each other because you just need to. You need to be really, really willing to put the work in. I mean, it's a marriage, like it's like a marriage, right? Like you have to put the work into the relationship, and you know, I think for us to now be eight years into business and stronger and more aligned than ever is a testament to that work that we do put into it.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

100%. And I I say it always to you know, chefs are creatives at the end of the day, right? And you've got to think of creatives in in the way of you know what are their strengths and what are their weaknesses. And whenever a chef goes to open a business, I always ask them the question, do you know your numbers? And sometimes they say yes, and a lot of times they say no. And there are some great chefs that really know their numbers really well, and there are some that say, Hey, I actually don't know my numbers at all, and that's why I need a partner with someone that does. And I find that the easiest way to find, you know, a great partnership besides trust is actually, you know, know your roles in in that partnership and know where you know your partner would be stronger than you, yeah. And and accept that and leave and then give the full trust, and then you'll receive the full trust back.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

100%. I think we are we like to say we're yin and yang, right? So we always we always end up at the same spot, but we always kind of come through a different path to get there. Um, and I think, you know, I mean, testament to anyone that is doing hats off, I should say, to anyone that is doing this on their own, because it is, you know, a big um emotional and sort of energetic burden to carry on your own shoulders. I'm very fortunate to share that with Andy. But I think also, you know, the the danger and the risk sometimes with having a partnership like that is that you can fall into your roles and not push yourself out of them. And I think we've probably had a few moments of that throughout the time where, you know, it's the safety blanket, or no, that's Andy's area or no, that's Becky's area. Whereas again, kind of coming back to that um work that we've both done in ourselves, it's like, okay, actually, how can we learn from each other and how can we challenge each other to push ourselves forward? And yes, we'll always sort of, I guess, um maximise our natural strengths.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Well, yeah, what's some techniques that you've done like on that development side together?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've done lots of development together. We've had mentors, we have gone on courses together, um, we've done lots of leadership training, um, both out of the business, both in the business. Um, and I think a lot of that is really understanding each other's strengths and weaknesses, but really knowing that we are the sum of our parts and the greatness of not just the agency, but the work that we do is actually us coming together and really challenging the best results. So rather than kind of splitting the work, splitting the responsibilities, and we've tried to do that many, many times, and we just naturally come back together around okay, well, I come at it from this angle, you will always come at it from this angle. But when we come in the middle, that's exactly where we're gonna find the diamond in the rough. Um, and so yeah, I think naturally for the work that that really works for us, and when we first started the business, there was I obviously took a more business slant, and Becky took a more team slant. Um, but I think when it comes to business, what we really recognize is we both need to be business minded, we both need to be across the numbers, we both need to be across the principles of the business because if we're leading it from the top together and we both have real clarity around every single one of those um touch points, then the rest of the team and everything will follow through. And I think we we've we've had a lot of learnings through that over our time. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

And during that journey, you've you know managed some really, really big key accounts. What's one way that you've maintained those relationships?

SPEAKER_04 14:03

Well, results, I think we've we're very um we're very committed to driving meaningful results. Um, I think, again, the exposure that we had at Murrayvale where we weren't, you know, an isolated marketing team, we were very much sort of about bringing brand to drive business decisions. Um they, you know, we were close to the conversations around what we were doing and how that did impact the bottom line has meant that we're not about just doing a pretty job, you know, um, or or kind of driving short-term superficial results. Um, we're very much around like what are we actually doing that is driving long-term enduring commercial results for a business. And I think being able to have those conversations and to build relationships over time where we have seen those results kind of um come flourished is what um kind of has maintained. I think also from us, we are a founder-led business. Um, we have an incredible team that we've um nurtured and grown over the years, but I think sorry, I'm bumping the um mic. I speak with my hands a lot, I've got to keep them bringing. And then you can keep it. What I do is I put them in front of the mic, so then you can um uh uh but we we st we're also um Andy and I are still very kind of close to a lot of the client work that we do, and I think that's been um important for growing those long-term relationships.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, back on to um the results that Becky was talking about, real measurable impact. And I think within hospitality, when it comes to dollars, when it when when it comes to marketing, is very, very slim. Um, and even in the big um F and B brands that we work with, um, in this market, those dollars are getting slimmer. And so, how do we really drive return for every single dollar spent and actually be a real trusted partner and honest partner to our clients to be like, okay, well, if you're gonna spend us this, if you're gonna spend this many dollars, this is the impact and this is what we want to drive beyond how much press we get you, how much social we get you, um, actually, how do how how how are you performing from a dollar point of view? How many people are we getting into the doors? Let's start off really small, let's drive one or two projects, let's try let's look at the results from that and let's continue to grow. And I think for that, um, we've held clients for seven, eight years. We've had clients right from the very beginning that we still have today, and we're very, very proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

And do you find that you know, measuring now with so much data being available and the different tools and techniques that we could utilize, what's the data that most hospitality businesses should be looking into, whether they're small or large?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Um, the the the biggest data that they should be listening to is feedback from the customer. Um there and and just listening to the customer. Um so not only just feedback from experiences that they have in the venue, but if they're looking at creating a new menu, if they're looking at creating a new promotion, if they're looking at you know creating a uh uh a new venue, like how do you actually really listen to what the customers are doing? Where are they going? What's motivating them? What's um what's detracting them? Um what are some of the challenges that they have in their own lives at the moment? Um, looking at beyond um what's happening in your venue, but what's happening outside of your venue as well, and really kind of working out how you can actually provide a lot of value back to them as opposed to I'm gonna create a new menu, I want to sell more food. What does it mean to them and and how do you drive that result?

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Yeah, it's funny you say that because we had a two Michelin star chef on our pod a couple months ago, um, his name was Ivan, and he was saying that when he's designed the menus, had his whole team around him, everyone's tasted it, they said it's amazing, his friends and family have come and tried it, phenomenal. He goes, the minute I played it and put it to the table, priced it, whatever, put it to the table, I've only done 50% of the work. It's when that plate comes back to the kitchen and that entire course comes back, is when I know if I've done something right or wrong. And I guess this is what sort of always lingered in my head is well, okay, how can we plan for success? In Hospital Dojo, our tagline is prep for success. How do we prep for success? So the question I have for you is what's one, you know, one small sort of action that you know a hospitality business can do right now in their business to find that result because a lot of people don't really tell you the honest opinion when they when they have it.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Absolutely. Um for me, I'd probably go a little bit wider, and rather than it coming directly from the experience in the venue, I would actually look at you know the people that are in that um catchment pool of who you'd want as your target audience and actually really understand their appetite for why they're coming to the venue, why they're not coming to the venue, where are the venues that they're that they're going for? How are you actually driving attention and interest into your venue as a whole? And then once you've understood that, then looking down in terms of okay, well, then how am I delivering from a product point of view? Is it great? How am I am I delivering a product that's actually going to get them to come back? Um, there's a difference between like trying to and you have to have that balance, right? If you only focus on the outside and don't focus on the inside, you spend a lot of effort and a lot of money trying to get everybody to come in. And then, you know, when you focus on the inside, and if you really double down on that, you can get a lot more growth. So it's kind of looking at both, and probably you know, where we really succeed, like having lots of different clients within the hospitality space and not having much exclusivity, and and we make an effort to do this, is because we understand and generate insights from lots of venues, what works, what doesn't work, what's driving the customer, not from just a hospitality point of view, but from all types of consumption. Um, what's helping alcohol brands, what's helping food brands, and we bring a lot of that insight into you know what's actually going to drive the customer. And I think it's not having that tunnel vision inside the venue, but really working with experts, not even just us, but journalists and other great people within the industry that can really help come in with some really honest great insight.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Right. So you're saying look at it from more of a macro lens and see what's happening in and around your city. Um, seeing what's thriving, I guess, is is is great. And then, you know, the current word is what's trending, right? Uh, for me, I find that a lot of businesses that you know become institutions is not on the back of trends.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Yeah, there's we we um we work with a lot of um partners who have made the mistake of following a trend, and a often those trends are design-based trends, so they'll sort of dictate an entire experience around what it looks like based again, sort of on on inspiration that they've seen in a lot of different places. All the cuisine has been chosen because you know it is the the food of the month. Um, and they're not really kind of, I guess, taking those uh personal preferences aside and uh being really clear with what is missing and where, again, back to Andy's point earlier, like what is bringing value to this community that we are entering.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

And having really great clarity around who you are, what is your unique point of difference, and not straying from that from that from that um position. Um, you know, we often see people mimicking other venues, mimicking other menus because that they think it's a trend or because that they have to get as much as they can from anybody and everybody, and they put on a menu to to serve anybody and everybody. The ones that are actually really, really clear with who they are and deliver exactly who they are and use that to form every single decision are the ones that really rise above. Um we're working on a project at the moment um in an area in Queensland, and we did a big sort of competitor research um literally just last week, looking at lots of different venues in that area, and lots of the different venues were all new venues, all Very elevated in their design style. Their design style, very, very similar. Their menus, all modern Australian, all serving all of the modern dishes. And there really wasn't anything that anybody said as a competitor as being really unique or had a point of difference. And you had about 15 or 20 venues all going for the same customer. And that was just a victim of like, well, that's what people want. So we're going to put on what people want, as opposed to actually really honing in on what is it that we want to create here? How do we actually get longevity from this brand and product and not just look like a brand new trendy venue? And really making sure that you're creating menus, you're creating service, you're creating offerings all over that experience.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

And we've had to apply those principles to our own business too, right? You know, we we launched the agency eight years ago. Um we knew the the kind of um the USP when we were entering, like, and and we were very clear around our expertise in hospitality. But it is also in you know easy to start to see what other people are doing, looking at competitors, think should we be trying this or should we expanding here or should we be trying to you know uh diversify our services to the point where we're offering something for everyone? And I think where we have continued to kind of come back to and find our strength is you know that that sole kind of purpose that we started the business with to begin.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Um so yeah, we we So you believe in like you know, smashing a niche, for example, rather than trying to be everything for everybody.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

Yeah, you've got to evolve, I think absolutely, you've got to learn um from your challenges and you know you can't always just stay put because there's a danger in that. But I think being really clear with where your strength is and working hard to continually hone that, um, I think is what is really important.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And once you've got that singular narrative that you're going for, and maybe that singular narrative is that we want to be the best pub for the community and we want to be there for old people, we want to be there for young people, we want to be there for families. Um what is it that's actually going to make you different in that space? What is it that makes you different from this community pub to the pub down the road? And how do you use that to tell that story through your menu? You tell that story through your drinks, tell that story through the types of events that you put on, um, the types of content that you create, and everything is singing from that tune. Um, you know, we spoke a little bit before about, you know, the dish coming back or just focusing it on the quality of the food or the drink. You'll find people's experience is not actually defined by the quality of the food or the drink, but it's actually defined by the entire experience and it's the entire vibe, it's the connections that they made inside the venue. It's like how they felt when they left the venue and um how interested that they are to go and tell others about it as well.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Yeah, it's all those touch points, right? It's you know, when I booked, if I could book, is is booking a thing A. Uh, what's what's the communication that happens there? And then what happens when I when I arrive to the venue, what's what's the host say? Um how am I greeted? How am I seated? You know, it's all those certain things that I find that a lot of hospitality venues, you know, worldwide, not just here, uh, they just hone in on the food and the beverage, and they don't think of outside that. And I guess that's where, you know, with people like yourselves, where that experience comes in. I I can design an amazing venue, I can make sure it works well, it's functional, and it ticks all the boxes in regards to labor and flow and you know design, but when it comes to the communication piece, that's where there are experts that you can engage with this sort of stuff. Um how do you find, you know, now, especially now with social media being, you know, what people think is the prominent face for their venue. I've seen some venues that have succeeded like well beyond others and don't even hold a social media account, but they just run user-generated content, which means you know, your clients, your patrons come in and they take photos of the food because you you you enforce them to without saying so. They just they want to be there, they want to show up, they want to take that photo, they want to say, hey, I'm here, right? Um what like you know and I've seen some venues that are overseas and even locally in Australia. What's your take on you know UGC and and and clients generating the content for those venues and not needing that social platform?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Very, very timely. Um, and I mean I'll say this and probably in six months' time, this is probably gonna be wrong. And and it changes every day, and that's okay, because it is changing every single day. And I think relying on um doing social media the traditional way is a very, very bad ploy to take. And when we say traditional for hospitality, you know, we we go into so many businesses where they're like, okay, we need to spend so much money on creating content for our feed, and that content needs to be exceptionally curated, and the caption needs to be perfect, and they spend a lot of money and a lot of time to get 20 likes, and you know, probably 0.0.01% actually come in and take that beautiful cocktail that you've taken a photo of and off the bar and come in and have that cocktail. And it's kind of taking the mindset out of like, you know, your social media account, if you do have one, is now just like your website. Website, it's like your shop window. People will go to it just to kind of get a vibe on the food and the drink and and and make their decision. Where social media is now is actually all of the stories that other people are taking, it's the conversations that other people are having. And you really want to have that earned-led approach where you get others' people talking about you, creating really great content about you, showcasing how great your venue is through their eyes, you know. And I don't think it's just hospitality, I think it's our view on all brands. We don't we don't believe what a brand wants to tell us, we believe what other people want to tell us, and that's the true sort of measure of reputation.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

I I couldn't agree with you more, and especially timely is a is a very, very important piece to what to what we're saying. When I went down my branding journey, um I went to someone who's completely left the field, and they're based in North Sydney, and they're a company called Rival. And I'll say this openly because they opened my eyes in a completely different manner. When I started my business, the Hospital Dojo had this great concept, this idea, this phenomenal, you know, community, and something that's never been done before. And I went to them with the idea, and out of eight agencies that I went to, they were the only one that could literally take it on and run with it. Halfway through our branding process, the founder, it's also a founder-led business, stopped me and said, We need to pivot you right now. I said, What is it? He goes, I spent enough time with you, you need to move towards a personal brand and put Hospital Dojo in the background. I said, Well, I just spent, you know, so much money with you building this brand. He goes, No, it is your brand, you're not running away from it. He goes, but you need to curate your content from a personal perspective, then a business perspective. People want to see you, people want to that that's the connection point. And what we found is when we went on that journey end of last year was that people really connected with me more than they did with the brand. Yeah. And I find that now I see restaurants that are dominating in the market, it's those that are led by people. They're showing, they're really showcasing their talent. Yeah, you might not have the biggest budget for a fit out or or what what the case may be. But it's certain individuals in the venue that really rise and show that sense of community and and build that through that stimulate that, you know.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

Absolutely. I mean, we call ourselves an earned-led creative agency, right? So it's all about driving word of mouth, getting people, other people to talk about the brands that we work with. Um, and I think, you know, so often we end up looking at that as a sort of tactical, the the tactical endpoint. So we've developed this, how are we then going to get people talking about it? Whereas, you know, as much as we can, we actually try and work with our clients very early on to bring that thinking in to the to the idea to begin with, because that's when you have genuine reason for people to talk about whatever the experiences that you're driving. You're not trying to spin a a kind of campaign at the end to sort of manufacture it. You're actually bringing that thinking in at the early point to um yeah, to build that sort of authentically.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

And what's one like sort of technique that you guys have used to drive that through? I know you don't want to share with your secret.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

No, I mean um I mean personal branding is much bigger than branding now, right? And going back to your last reference is we've got people like Elon Musk, who is now bigger as a personal brand than NASA itself. You know, you know, Donald Trump is now bigger than the um Republican Party um account itself, you know, and and um we've got lots of big identities in hospitality that are really, really big. And you know, the minute that they start to become human and come on podcasts or do content themselves, people can really relate to them as humans and they're not these people behind their the brands, they're the people that are in front of the brands. And it's something that um PR and urn-led um marketing has been doing for quite some time, and um, even um, you know, a big part of developing and creating the Merivale brand over the years that we were there is actually rising the voices of everybody that was in the brand, building the chef profiles, building the similar profiles, building the emerging talent that was coming through there, giving them a voice, giving them a platform through the press, through content. And that's actually what started to create okay, well, Merivale is this reputable food and beverage business because not only does it have great venues, but it's harvested this amazing talent of people that are coming to work every day and delivering their magic for others. Um, and you know, we we really bring that through everything that we do, and and when we're creating venues, the more closer we can bring it to a person, the better. You know, I think we see such great venues on in that independent space where you know you've got um mum and dad back in the day, or today you might have husband and wife, or you might just have Samilia that's gone out and and done their own um wine shop or wine bar. Um, and you know, everything in that venue is is their real passion and it's their real philosophy, and everything that they've started in that venue has really come from like their travels or their curations, and you see this person being manifested through an experience, right? Um, and those venues, when you go in there, you feel the soul, you feel the heart. Um, you know, when you go to a big hospitality group venue, which there is a lot of now, the ones that don't do it right, will you you really get a sense of there's no soul, there's no heart. There it a brand has curated this, a group has curated this, it's not a person. Um, and you know, for us as people, we want to feel connected, we want to feel connected to others, um, we want storytelling and we want to go on that journey. So, you know, people at the front of um brands or people at the front of curation of of a venue and story is is very, very key in hospitality.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

That's what creates the soul. And without that, it does feel like just another venue, just another brand.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

And how do you sort of, you know, when when somebody's got this conceptual idea of, you know, I want to build, I want to build a hospitality business, I want to start a restaurant, you know, how do we find the money to do to get people like you involved? How do we, you know, as a as a consultant on on my end, I always stipulate a budget at the beginning of the day. And when they tell me I want to throw X amount on Instagram ads, I'm like, you guys are thinking completely wrong here. Throwing money on on ads to a catchment of audience that you don't even know yet, you haven't even defined. Right?

SPEAKER_04 34:01

I think um it's really interesting because what we do is so is so pivotal to an enduring um an enduring business, right? And so often we have conversations where we'll put forward our our our fees and there'll be a question around the value of that when we then ask how much are you spending on the fit out? And we're thinking, but who's driving this? An interior design is driving it. You know, like not you know, you're not really thinking about all the assets, all the elements that come together here. This is going to be the most important money that you spend for the entire project because every this will inform everything and will prevent you making from a lot of mistakes. You know, so often do we get um calls from um clients, uh potential clients who have launched products and they're one, two years in, three years in, and they're trying to undo a lot of these costly decisions that were made up front. And those decisions sort of at the time felt like, oh, we've got to invest the money here and not actually where, you know, where we can have um tangible assets.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Like I use my brand guide every single day.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

But it's it's your Bible. It's your Bible to make all decisions, and it's not just decisions around what a venue looks like or the food that you choose, it's also your staffing. Your tone of voice decisions that you make. Every decision within that business should be sort of um built off this.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

And we've worked really, really hard, and that's why we've got really long-standing clients where in the past, when we first started, we were the endpoint. We've done the venue, now can you market it and PR it for us? And we're like, sure. It's like um, okay, you've got this nice thing, you've got a great brand that doesn't really talk to your venue experience or your story, and now we're trying to market something that doesn't really sort of come together. Um, to now working with clients where we're the very first person that they engage, if they've bought a venue or they're redeveloping a venue. We bring all of those marketing insights, the way that we're going to get the customer, we're gonna build legacy, the way that we're gonna tell a story, create a story right up front to really create that story that's gonna be really unique, that's gonna really resonate with the community, it's gonna really resonate with culture, it's gonna really resonate within your industry. And we use that story to inform, okay, well, then what's the design going to be? What's the food going to be? What's the drink going to be?

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Where's the location going to be? Well, the location, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

And how does that story manifest through every single part of that experience? And that forms the blueprint to find the right architect, to find the right chef, um, to find the right team. Um and that you've got a brand Bible right from the very beginning. So then when we go and create the brand, that story is really like authentic to the experience, and you can feel it through every single part of that journey.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

It's really important, I think, also when you know you're working with um businesses that might have multiple stakeholders, um, and you know, their interpretation of what the venue is going to be might sort of be the same on paper, but you know, in their minds is all very differently, it is all very different. And again, they are costly um challenges, you know, that that cut that's very costly when you're then having to try and have many different people interpret something very differently, and that's when you end up having a very sort of um confused concept. And you know, again, we try and kind of distill what where everyone's at in the project and kind of come back to them with this very clear blueprint that kind of gives everyone the same direction to move forward.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

And so if you're going to spend a few hundred grand to a few hundred million, um you know, what is a very small amount to really guarantee that success upfront so that you're not coming to us in three, six months, a year to rechange and redevelop the whole thing when you've already made all of these like straight. Decisions.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Yeah, I get I guess you know, um I love I love the concept, I love the idea, and I love the way that you guys deliver it, to be honest. You know, when when my clients work with me very early on, and I work with you know people from your mum and dad kebab shop all the way up to um your large sort of operations, and I always find that struggle of finding out what is your USP, what what what are you trying to achieve here, right? And I guess you know, being um being like I'm not so much a creative when it comes to coming up with those concepts and coming up with those ideas and from a marketer's eyes, uh it's really important and I can truly see the value and in my opinion, investing in that, if if you're not willing to invest in that as as a as as a financial, you know, people call it a punch to the stomach. Call it a punch to the stomach. If you're not willing to invest that sort of hurt money in doing the discovery and doing the deep dive, then why the hell are you going to business?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Totally. I mean, our biggest thing is um you shouldn't have to spend all of the money on on the comms, on the social, on the paid ads, on the signage, on all of the things that you think that you need if your product was so bang on from the beginning. Yeah, um, if you're delivering a product of what the customers need and what that community will naturally gravitate to because it's there's so it's so interesting, there's so many stories. Every time they come back, they get to unravel something great, and that naturally manifests. There's no marketing needed. Um and so, you know, we we say do it properly from the beginning, spend the money, and it watch it become a lot easier. Don't do it properly from the beginning, you end up spending a lot more money on the market, trying to figure it out, trying to fix things. Trying to solve problems, trying to find lots of ways to get people in the venue that they're just not connecting with.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

And we all really push our clients to be able to have very transparent conversations around their budgets because we'd much rather want to know, like much rather want to know the full budget and then determine what then they should be spending on any of the branding work.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

This market's worth, it's all transparency right now. Like any conversation that I have with any of my clients is is full open transparency. And I don't we're we've gone the beyond the market of you know hidden fees and hidden charges and lump sum bills. Everything right now is this is what we charge, this is our fee. If you decide to add something on later, well, this is the cost. There's no we we don't I think this all came out, you know, sort of in in COVID, especially after after that pivotal time of the pandemic, where it's just like, you know what, why are we why are we bothering all this? Let's just be transparent, let's be open. You know what you're paying me, you know what you're getting. It's not like there's no ambiguity, there's no like, oh, I thought of this or that, and it just makes the whole process a lot easier. I found anyway from that sort. Yeah, and um no, definitely. I I think that you know, I can I I can definitely see your perspective, and where where clients do go wrong is they're lost in that, they're they really are lost in that journey where and especially when they have stakeholders, it's just piecing together what you've said. It's just like I'm just thinking of all these different examples that have happened over time, like shit. If they had done XYZ, then this probably wouldn't have happened. And it's sad, like a lot of people think spending big money on a fit out is where it's at. It's not it, that's really not it. People don't care what chair you bought, that's it can date really easily. That's that emotional, that's that emotional decision. Um, you know, you don't need the best state-of-the-art combi oven to open up your venue, right? Uh, there's there's a hundred ways to skin a cat, but I really do believe that in this market now where people have access to so much information and so much choice, it's under it's understanding what the consumer wants. That has no that that has no price tag. You if you can gather that, then that's where you'll be out, you know, where you'll be able to win your client over.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah. I mean, we're working on a new um restaurant concept that's going into a brand new five-star hotel in um New Zealand. Um, and you would expect that this restaurant is going to be very elevated, very fine dining. You need it, you know, beautiful cutlery and plates, etc. And we've developed a concept that is you know very home-driven, very much like you know, it's grandma's kitchen in her farmhouse kind of vibe. So we're pushing them to go to Vinny's and find beautiful old plates. Free purpose stuff. $1, $2, $3, because that's going to tell the story and that's going to tell this narrative in this elevated, in this elevated place. So there's very different ways to skin it then feel like that you have to level up to what everybody else is doing and finding your unique point of difference and find and being creative within that.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Where do you guys sort of, you know, um you you've been doing this for eight years. So where do you guys sit yourselves in the market in regards to clientele? Who's someone that could, you know, approach example in the way is it someone that is starting out or someone that's established? Um, I know that Andy, you work on some really major property developments and redevelopment sites and coming up with that whole concept, right? But you know, what if someone that's listening to the pod now is thinking of a is thinking of a concept, is open, wants to open a new restaurant. Could they approach you guys for that sort of feedback? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I mean, look, it's a really good filter for us, and I think it's a big learning that we've had in the business up front where you know, when we first started, we would take on lots of work and we wanted to scale, and we wanted lots of people, and that was the way of growing our business to kind of really feeling the edges of that and and and losing control in that and sort of really bringing it down to here's our team, here's our people, here's the impact that we do, here's what we love doing, and we know that the what everything that we do is actually going to drive great culture, um, is going to drive great results. Now, my And then we got clear with that, we got really clear with the work that we wanted to do and the people that we wanted to work with, and that were people that really matched our ambition around really creating great experiences, great communities, and driving great results. So we really look for clients that have that same creative ambition, that want to do things differently, that want to find a unique point of difference and not do what everybody else is doing. And if if if someone's got that right appetite and are willing to really collaborate, not just only on what happens after you've built a venue, but how we can sort of really partner to help create the experience together and really drive that experience together, then we would work with all people from all the different levels.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

That's really nice to hear. Beautiful. Um to someone wanting to start their own brand, their own vision, their own concept? You know, you've developed so many amazing brands and you've taken brands internationally and you've brought international brands into Australia and and literally penetrated through markets. If there was someone that was, you know, toying with the idea of taking that step like you guys did. They work in a really great venue, they want to open something up, you know, what's one thing you would tell them to to take note and really consider when they're wanting to start their own brand?

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Um I would say start with your story. And that's not your service, that's not your offering, it's not your food, it's not your drink. What's the story that you want to tell? Is it your story? Is it someone else's story? Is it a story that you're inspired by and you want to manifest that? Write that, write that novel and make sure that everything that you do comes from the heart of that novel.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Yeah, I think keep putting pen to paper, and you know, that is a very powerful tool for trying to disseal whatever's in your head and and knowing that it is an authentic reflection of what's going on in there. Um it's very easy to look at others as sort of um uh you know, looking at others as competition, right? But use them as inspiration, don't use them to kind of dictate or guide what you're doing yourself. Um I think for us, you know, we've we've been eight years in the business as we've shared before, and we we always keep revisiting and coming back to that sort of our own story, right? We always come back to our story. Is this still what we are doing? Is this still true to the way in which we are bringing on to staff and bringing on um clients and continuing to revisit it and it has stayed true the whole time. Like we haven't pivoted from that. So I think um, you know, before rushing into the decisions of what it's got to look like and you know what the brand and your logo can be, and who do you want to work for, all those sort of things that um kind of flow, just spend a bit of time trying to distill it.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

That's amazing advice, it truly is. Uh Andy, Beck, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us. Uh well for me for hosting you guys. Sorry. Um I I've really, really learned a lot, and and your sign-off messages were were absolutely beautiful. Um, again, I just want to thank you guys, and I'll say this openly for allowing me in your space um to to kick this off. And you know, we we built such a successful podcast, and I couldn't wait uh to return the favour. Thank you so much, thank you, Brandon. And congrats.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

I mean, we've spoken a little bit around um the importance of of sharing stories, right? And you're creating an amazing platform for people to be able to do just that, and um again putting the person the people behind um these incredible hospitality businesses to the forefront and to share, and I think that's really important. So thank you for creating this space.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Right, and we talk about you know contributing value, and that's actually what builds emotional connections between humans and between brands and humans, and so um we also do a newsletter every um two weeks, and it's not to boast about any of our work or what we do, but it's actually giving that value back to customers, telling them what's happening in culture, what's happening in hospitality and what we're seeing, what we're loving. Yeah, I read it all the time. I think I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

You can do our next culture diet there.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

I'd love to, yeah, yeah, absolutely put a feature in. No, definitely. But the idea is to you know elevate the culture that's around us to get everybody to do better, right? And um and to to create better experiences for customers. So um, you know, I think as a as a guide from that, as a guide from the value that you create, like lots of other brands and hospitality businesses should think about the additional value that they create than just the experience inside.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, and how do you feel like I know we're wrapping up, but when you're writing that newsletter, how what's the emotional feeling that you're getting through it?

SPEAKER_04 48:52

Pride, because um it is again, you know, what Andy said, it's the sum of our parts. Um, we have the most incredible um team that kind of continually finding these incredible references or sharing their insights, and it's such a collaborative effort and it's such such a fulfilling thing to um be able to put out into the world. So, yeah, pride would be my emotion when I we send it out.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

But impact as well. Um, and and knowing that you know, we've got 15,000 people that read that newsletter, um, and we have the same, you know, 8,000 people that open it, click on it, and you know, just looking at who those people are, and there's some really great people in the industry, and you can see that come through the work that they do or the conversations that we have and the impact that it's made on them. So even if you're not paying for us and we can provide that impact, we you know that's it's energizing, that's what keeps us going. Energises us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Definitely. We'll we'll put the link of where uh they can sign up to that newsletter uh in the box. Bruce at the end, then we put that in. Definitely we'll put that in. Um no, I I enjoy it, I read it, I look out for it every couple weeks when it comes in my inbox. Um, my assistant, she flags it for me so I can have a read of it so it doesn't get thank you, it doesn't get buried away in our email these days. People just email everything like a thank you is an email, mate. Text me, it's okay, you can still text me. But no, it's really good. Well, guys, thank you again so much. Thank you. I really can't wait to see you guys on your 10-year anniversary and your 20-year anniversary and keep on trumping, uh keep on trumping the space. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you.