SPEAKER_00 0:00

In this episode of the Hospo Dojo podcast, I chat with Claire Stenhouse, restaurant manager at Melbourne's iconic attica. Originally from Scotland, Claire has built a global hospitality career across seven different countries. With experience alongside Gordon Ramsey and Jason Atherton, she's all about people's strategy. We talk career moves, team culture, and what it takes to run one of Australia's top restaurants. This episode is proudly brought to you by Food and Hospitality Week, a major event in Australia's hospitality calendar connecting 15,000 chefs, owners, and industry professionals every year. Claire Stenhouse, the restaurant manager at Attica in Melbourne, an institution. Absolutely. Not just in Melbourne, in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

They're celebrating 20 years this year.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

That's incredible. 20 years as an independently owned restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

But you know, not just for Attica's been as an independently owned restaurant, yourself, Claire, you've been, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Pretty independent.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, very independent, right? Yeah. Gordon Ramsey.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Jason Athen, Mario Carbone.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Ben.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, I'm racking them up, collecting chefs.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Right? And then you did an operations director role in Hong Kong?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I did, yeah. I was there for three years for the spiciest time for uh the protests going into um COVID. And I had two different uh operations manager and operation director roles.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

But now you're settled. Yeah. Do you feel settled?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Definitely, yes. I'm not going anywhere if I can help it, if the PR comes through. Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I'm sure. This podcast is gonna make sure that you're you're gonna stay there. Big worry, Attica. We love you. Claire loves you, and we Melbourne loves you as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, Attica's a fantastic place to work. There's a lot in different cultures that I've learned all over the world, but I think Attica's it's definitely the most comfortable. Yeah. While also putting me under l the right kind of pressure, you know. I'm very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

That's phenomenal. Claire, you and I have a lot in common. Oh yeah? More than you think. I love efficiency. Yes. More than anything. If anything, if you look at my Instagram page, it's all about making commercial kitchens hyper-efficient. Like to the to the micro minute. Like I I dial in to any process possible. And we try to alleviate stress, we strive for um, you know, employers to give their employees a less stressful workplace, make sure they're comfortable, make sure they can perform. For us, when we look at designing kitchens, we think of it as if you know an artist is in his in on his canvas, and if he doesn't have his tools around him, it's it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Well, you've just got a very frustrated artist.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

100%. Well, and I don't think you want the customers don't want to be frustrated either, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, exactly. That goes into the food.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Exactly. So you want you want the environment to be as perfect as possible where possible. Yeah. But of course, there are challenges all the time, and that's what we're gonna dial in today on on how you overcome those challenges in these ever-changing workplaces, especially going, you know, through different continents.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, the culture, the different international cultures has been humbling in my learning.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

That's a great way to put it. Humbling is an amazing work. Um so your career's taking you to nine countries and giving you the chance to work with the most renowned people in the industry. What lessons from those experiences have shaped who you are today and how you approach your role at ECO?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

I think in one word is integrity, and that's from my own mistakes of saying I'll do something and then not being able to do it, because actually I didn't realize that no one had shown me how. And now that I have been shown how, or I've seek I've sought out the the ways of doing things, um, I'm now looking at the younger generation to make sure that they're being told how. This is sort of a theme that I just keep coming back to. Um, is this sort of granular definition of what it is that you do. For example, you just spoke to me about how you love efficiency. But can you define efficiency? How many tangents does efficiency have? You know, you've got the efficiency of the systems and the processes, but they are useless if the clarity of those processes is non-existent, or if the understanding of those those processes is not retained in the people that you're bringing on. You see what I mean? So people have a lot of talk, but not a lot of foundation. And I I'm one of them in my younger years. I remember being really staunch in Gordon Ramsay, and the one of the best pieces of uh advice I ever got when I became general manager of the York and Albany, which was his hotel up in Candom, Camden, um, was one of my operations directors being like, Yeah, you're passionate, great, but you gotta know what you're talking about. And just that sentence is so simple, but it's very true. Get granular on the words you're talking about. This is one lesson that I've definitely unliving, trying to anyway.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

How did you, you know, navigate your way into hospitality?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Uh-huh. Um, yeah, well, my first role was actually when I was 13 years old, highly illegal, yeah. In rural Scotland as a chef in uh Italian, Scotland Italian Scottish Italian uh like gelateria, but they would do like 50s diner style. So it was just me in the kitchen flipping burgers um at the age of 13 for £1.80 an hour. And then from there I loved the pressure, I loved feeling grown up, I loved meeting different people, I loved the social aspect of it because when you're that age, you don't know anything else. Your whole life is just the social aspect of things. Um and it just went from one opportunity to the next. I only knew one thing about myself, which was that I wanted to travel the world, the whole world. And um, well, everybody eats, so did that.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

That's it. That's exactly uh that's that's that's the truth. And then you just then progressed your career. Did you further any studies or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I did, yeah. I didn't, I studied a lot of random things. I'm definitely one of these people that, especially when I was younger, saw a shiny thing, got really interested in it, wanted more. And so, like for example, I had a commercial helicopter license in London for a small period of time. Just couldn't help myself, just threw money into it. Um then I I studied radio broadcasting actually in Scotland. Um and I worked in the radios in hospitals and I loved that. I um then when I left Hong Kong, Radio sorry, radios in hospitals?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

What were you doing in the hospitals?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, before screens and things, they had radio stations and hospitals to keep people company. And and you would go around the wards and you would take requests for songs or whatever, and I designed entire programs for the patients in hospitals to keep them company.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, it's really sweet. I've got some gorgeous stories about that, I'll tell you later. But um, yeah, uh in Hong Kong, it's probably one of my most stressful uh work experiences, yeah, for sure. The cultures that I went through there, multiple, were both toxic, shaping, uh rewarding, they were everything. Not to mention the fact that we were going through COVID and they had some social unrest.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Well, yeah, the the social unrest adds the f the flair. Yeah. Uh, but Hong Kong, I look at Hong Kong, I look at places like Singapore, I look at places like Dubai, there's so much action that's happening on the ground, like everyone is like chipping away to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

You know, it's like everyone's pulling strings left, right, and centre.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Everybody wants to be seen. Exactly. So no one gets seen.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Right. And and it's and it's a it's a big push. Um, and it's Hong Kong, the city doesn't sleep. No, it's not a good thing. If you've never if you've never been to Hong Kong, like I've been to Hong Kong, and I look, I love going around Hong Kong, but it it'd be so hard to work in.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, it well, it was the restaurant city of the world uh when I joined it. So I was so excited. I was working in Switzerland at the time and I met Black Sheep Restaurant's owner, and I just fell in love with them in the interview. Um, but then when I started working there, it was it was difficult. It was a stressful time for them, which meant it was a stressful time for everyone. But anyway, Hong Kong came to an end. I sadly I lost my father during COVID, not because of COVID, he missed all that drama. Um, but I it it definitely changed my perspective, and I wanted to go home and be with the family that I had left. So in 2021, I left my job as the director of Leading Nation, which was the next job that I got in Hong Kong. Gave six months notice.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Then um I went And that's quite normal for For Hong Kong, yeah. But even for like a high-ranking professional in your realm, it's but like there's a lot to lose for the organization. There is, and for me, I find that quite respectful that you did that.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah, well, I was I asked I I was asked for four and I gave six because I wanted to replace myself.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

And that's that's the best way. And I think any professional that's listening to this right now, you know, there's one thing to hold your integrity and not allowing anyone to say anything after you've left is because you've actually given the organization that gave you so much the ability to continue to foster and grow.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I couldn't agree more, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Even though you might go through hardships, there are some times in life. Chef Brehim from Nori in Singapore, he told me what he taught he shared with me a story about his grandfather, and when he was working at the Fat Duck, he wanted to leave so bad. And his grandfather said, You can leave. But then the next place you're gonna go to, you're also gonna leave. Yeah. He goes, So you need to get to the root of the problem and find out why you want to leave.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Right? He goes, you can still leave, but find the root of the problem why you want to leave. Yeah. He ended up staying there an extra two and a half years.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

But then he left. But when he left, he left with he left with integrity, he left with empowerment. And legacy. And legacy, right? Yeah. And and everyone's like, everyone holds your name, you know, so like so well respected in the industry. Yeah. Uh it's an honour for us to have you even sitting next to us. Thank you here for having you here. Uh, but that's that's the truth. And when I see someone that does that, I you know, I really appreciate that. Because as a business owner myself, when someone gives you that ability and that comfort and saying, Look, I appreciate everything, it's not right for me right now, but I want to take that next step in my journey, but I'm gonna make sure everything's okay for you. Yeah, you know, and call me if you need me. We're there.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Again, it's down to that integrity of knowing what you're talking about, though, right? Like I've had, I mean, hospitality has people coming and going and coming and going as swinging doors. It's such a transient for young kids that don't know themselves, so they can't know the root of the problem because the root of the problem is still growing a lot of the time, right? Um, but be clear on that, I think. You know, if somebody's like, this is not for me right now, that's totally fine. This is what you're you know expected to provide so that the rest of the team don't suffer from your leaving. Leave properly. You're only remembered how you left.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

A thousand percent. Yeah. Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Um, but yeah, to answer your question about studies, sorry, I went back to London and I studied organizational psychology.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Wow. So we with that, um how long have you been at Attica now?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So I got there in September 2023.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

And can you share one operational strategy that's helped Attica stay efficient without compromising on that experience?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, um, let's think. I think I'll go for um maybe micro training. So micro training is something that I've kind of introduced in a few different areas, but so we already had wine training, which was at two o'clock on a on a Thursday, and we had a wine academy, which is every single first Monday of the month. What I did was that I chose different areas of what we needed to learn and did half-hour slots every single day. So tasty Tuesdays would be for food, and um you know thirsty Thursdays or something like that. Yeah, it wasn't particularly in in Attica, but we did um a pub quiz style, like trivia style quiz on Saturdays just before service. And initially I did it just to get them comfortable with the sort of group environment because when I first got there, they wouldn't even put their hand up to say anything, they were so shy. Um I warmed them up, and then um and now we did like rotations, so they write the quiz for their colleagues, and then I every four weeks I give a prize.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Teacher, teacher, that it works.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

The best way to learn sometimes is by teaching.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

And they got so fun, like they got so into it, they're all like a lot more connected to each other now. You're allowed to fail. You're the relationship to help needed to be changed there. So, what I mean by that is that if you receive help and you're judging that person, thinking, well, uh uh this person obviously needs me, he's a he's a failure because he needs help. If you're judging even subconsciously in that way, then you also think that when you're receiving help. You know? Yeah, so you think that about yourself when you're receiving help, and then that's where blame and shame and judgment comes along. And so just breaking down that ego by leading by example, and just being like, well, I'm not afraid to say that I don't know what this is, but we have a job to do, we have a job to do it together.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

So Yeah, I guess uh I I can relate to that quite a lot, even now as a professional and you know, delivering for clients constantly. When a client asks me a question or wants me to do something, and you know, it's something that I could potentially do if I knew how to do it. In my old years, I'd say, yeah, no problem. And you figure it out, I'd try figure it out, yeah, and then I'd fail miserably, and I'd learn along the way, and then I'd probably hurt the client in the process. But now it's just like, hey man, I actually don't know how to do that. Yeah, I really don't. But why don't I call one of my buddies who might and we can learn it together?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, I mean that's integrity as well. We don't do things if we don't do them properly.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Right? Right. A thousand percent. So that that for me is yeah, I I can see that and I love um the teacher-teacher style as well. The reason why we do these podcasts is not only to to share your voice and and give you know people like yourself a platform to be able to, you know, um share your experiences and share your knowledge, but it also teaches me so much. You know, I get to sit in a room with you, uh, I get to pick your brain, I get to like, you know, really hone all that in. Um and for me to then be able to go, okay, well actually Claire does it this way, like the story I told you about Yvonne. Yeah, right? It it just it that that's the stuff that then now gets sit and it sits in my subconscious, so then when I'm in a conversation, be like, hey, you know, I can pull from Claire. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and and adaptability that adaptability and you know, proof of concept that it's hey, it's actually worked, we can try that, you know. Um yeah, that's amazing. So, you know, you're at Food and Hospitality Week in Melbourne. I am you're in this fantastic bus. How's it feel? Very cool bus. Yeah, yeah, I feel cooler than my my week. You've try you've travelled all over the world. We tried to bring a replicated experience of what it could be like in our studio.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Oh, that's cool, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

And we just wanted to, you know, the exhibition hall has got you know fantastic activations around. Um it's you know, that there's so much going on, there's so much buzz, but we need to be able to, you know, silence ourselves and talk in this space. Have we achieved that?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Absolutely. It's like our own little pod.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

That's it. A hundred.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I haven't actually walked around the place yet. I just beelined.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Straight here. Like girly run. Did you see it?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Startly, yeah. It was the first thing I saw. The first thing you saw? Okay, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, okay, great, great. So, what brings you here this year?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Um, I was asked to come. It's quite simple. I um I'm I'm very interested in doing things like um like public speaking and networking and getting to know the um Australian economy of hospitality because it's very different in every country. And I do love the sort of youthful enthusiasm that that the hospitality industry has here. There's so much opportunity for creativity and independent growth. I love that. And so I kind of want to know what's going on. I have a little side hustle type thing that I do um where I go and do workshops for other businesses that have that can be like transferable skills from the very human soft skills that you get in hospitality. And with my organizational psychology, I've got frameworks to then translate that into other um areas. So uh next month I'm doing one for the Red Cross, for example. I do one for uh Sprex, the coffee machine.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

When are you coming to Sydney?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Um anytime you like, man. Whenever you fly to Sydney, let us know. We'll get you in for a workshop. Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

We'd love to have you in a workshop. We'll film it.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah. How about we do that?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

You can do a workshop for us.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

That'd be good fun. I'll I'll give you my website. Yeah. You can choose which one you want.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, 100%. We'll film it for you.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

That sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Um and then we can spread that as a collab workshop.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, it sounds good. Yeah, sounds good. Anything you need to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Amazing. Well, let's do that. And and just to just to wrap up for today, what's one thing you think people in the industry need to know better when it comes to retaining great people?

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, I think that's gonna be a theme of this um of this workshop. And we need to we need to sort of shift from managing bodies on a roster to managing the individual humans with limits and ambitions and different goals, and just be very clear about the the humans that we have in front of us. This industry is, for some people, their first experience as an adult, like newly minted adults, and we as leaders are going to shape the rest of their career even if it's not in hospitality. That's weight. Let's talk about that weight. That's a big weight to bear. Do it properly, right? Deal with human beings. Andrew Carnegie used to say you take care of the pennies the panel, take care of themselves. It's very true.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And how do you, at a business level, manage those, you know, micro nuances of different humans continuously? Because you can't talk to one person the same you talk to another, right? Absolutely not. And that's what we found in in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

You also can't jeopardize who you are. You can't change who you are to fit right? Not like you can, but to a point. You you want to hold on true to what your moral compass is saying and what your business ethics are and so on. So, how do you do that? Honestly, listening. People don't listen as much as they think that they do. Treating people like human beings and using time as a commodity, that's the commodity that you have as a leader. You have time to give to the people that are working for you, and they have time to work for you, right? They give their time if you give yours. So, what I mean by that is that I have a door, uh like an open door policy all the time. If anybody wants to come and talk to me and they do tears, laughter, whatever, they come in and they have chats with me. I do four yearly performance reviews. Two of them are formal and based on development, and two of them are less formal and based on psychological uh safety within the workplace and the culture. And then every other time it's just I'm here if you need me. I align their degrees or their ambition and their wants and needs outside of life into what they're doing day by day. That's why no one's leaving.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

That's amazing. So you've got this framework that you've built that you utilize. Now, as a leader in such a demanding role, especially now, you know, with you wanting to do more of these workshops, what's a strategy that you utilize to best manage your time so that you're available for these people?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Well, Attica does that for me. That's why it's such a wonderful thing to work at Attica, and I'm going nowhere for as long as I can because it's such a wonderful place to work. But Ben and Kylie are so understanding, like everything that I've just said that I give to my team, they give to me, right? So if I tell them, oh, I'm I'm doing a little workshop for sense of self up in Collingwood, and they're like, That's amazing. Do you need a day off? You know, it's incredible. They're so supportive because I do the job as well as I possibly can at Attica, they can trust me. Trust is such an important thing in that in that regard. Plus, it helps that we get three days off a week.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Nice, yeah, amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Uh, you've certainly enlightened me, Claire, and given me a lot to think about personally. Um, and and we can't wait to have you in Sydney for our team's workshop because we'd we'd love to love to have you there. Pick your brain even more. I'm sure you know, Ben here in the corner and everyone else outside just racking their brain going, oh, we wish we can ask her a hundred questions. So I'm happy to come. So, yeah, we're gonna get you down there and we'll yeah, we'd love that. We'd love that definitely. Uh amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Okay for having me in your VIP bus.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Oh, you're always welcome. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Thank you.