SPEAKER_02 0:00

In this episode of the Hotspur Dojo Podcast, I'm chatting with Adriano Zumbo, the pastry chef behind Zumbo Petisserie, and one of Australia's best-known names of dessert. We talk about where it all began, the reality of building a brand, the highs and lows of running your own business, and how he keeps the ideas flowing in such a fast-paced industry. This episode is proudly brought to you by Food and Hospitality Week, a major event in Australia's hospitality calendar connecting 15,000 chefs, owners, and industry professionals every year.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Adriano, man. You're a master, bro. You are literally what we call in the Hospo Dojo a sensei. You're a l you like that, huh?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Um yeah, I've I've uh to be honest, when we found out that you were speaking at this event and Rita was on, we were picking through the speakers. It's like, oh, I just want to have 10-15 minutes of Adriano's time just so I could pick his brain and see how he went on this amazing journey and where he's on to next. So that's what we're gonna unpack today. Um and and let's let's just get it started. So you were born in Kunimble.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Where is that? Canambul, uh Canamble. 164 kilometres um uh out of Dubbo. Okay. Yeah, so between Dubbo and Lightning Ridge. So Lightning Ridge is the open mining um town, and um, yeah, kind of like the middle of nowhere in a sense, you know. And your family uh Italian heritage? Yeah, migrated there in the 60s. Um my dad went out there first, you know, followed his brother, his brother came out to Australia. And then um Were they in the mines or were they Fruit and Veg. The fruit and veg, yeah. My my dad my dad's brother was in fruit and veg. My dad originally worked at the hospital, mowing lawns and stuff, okay. Back when he first came out, and um and then saved up and and I think you know borrowed a little bit of his brother's money and opened a corner store. Oh, beautiful in uh on the other side of town. So, and um because the big river goes through the middle of Campbell, okay, uh Castle Ray River, and then um and then yeah, he went back to Italy, married my mum. She came over, came over, yeah, and then you know that's it, man. That started started running the corner store and had a few kids and and then grew that and got so you got siblings, I'm guessing? Got two sisters, yeah. Older, younger, older, both older, 10, 12 years older. Some of them by long way.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

My wife is uh got a similar age gap between her sisters too.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah, so I'm just like uh yeah, I'm that last sort of the last surprise. The last surprise. So um yeah, and then they you know they grew up and they built soup markets and and various so like independent like supermarkets. IGAs IGAs, yeah. So IGAs and then yeah, a few other things that they got into servo, got us in the local just in the local town, they got a servo drive-through bottle shop.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Yeah, it's that's very common like for Mediterranean, Middle Eastern families. Um they they all that that's something that they knew, you know, English being their second language, one way that they could show passion and love was through food, and they you know they appreciated it and and showing a different side to food as well, right? Oh, totally. And growing up, you know, I grew up in Sydney, but man, you grew up in the middle of nowhere, so you know, Parma and and on all different tours of salamis, people would be like, What's this? What's this? You know, back in the 70s, 80s, I remember like my my uncles used to go to school with like a lab near sandwich, and everyone's like, What the hell is this? you know. Um, but then now it's like a norm, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Now it is now it's a norm, right? Now it's like everyone wants to be multicultural now. Everyone wants to get a bit of that different um cuisines from around the world, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

It's and it's people like your father that really pioneered it for Australia, you know, they're the ones that kept on saying, We don't have this here, let's bring it. How can we bring it? And then they'd really push the boundaries with their manufacturers, and then look at people like vanilla cheese now. How amazing to be able to see burrata throughout menus all over Sydney when that was just like a simple dish that we used to have at home, you know, and it's just like that's where you you you you thank um you know our founding fathers of of our culture back in Australia. And then how did you get into Patissary?

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Well, you know, I had to work every day after school, being that, you know, being an Italian family, it's uh you know, you have to work um and and have in the shop. So yeah, that was my thing after school, and and as I I went through different sections, I mean, over time, um well the original was one supermarket, and then they built another one outside of town for my sister, bigger one, and they had an in-store bakery and butchery and stuff in it. So um I started going working over there, and um they had an in-store bakery, so I was just like, it was only par bake stuff, nothing fancy. But I I enjoyed working in there because you know I got to decorate cakes, bake bread, and I really enjoyed it, you know. I didn't like the deli, you know, all the meat juices and shit, and and um, you know, it wasn't for me. Uh I love stacking shelves because I played a lot of sport, it was good workout. Um, I love like running down the aisles how quick I could unlock undo the pallet, put it on the on the floor in front of the shelves. That was my thing. Check out, I didn't like well I didn't it's not that I didn't like people, I was shocked, I was very timid on people. People talked to me and I was like, more of an introvert. Yeah, I was like, what do I say to this lady or this this dude? You know, I don't know, keep talking about something anyway. But so like that was my my jam. So the the the the bakery was where I found it. I didn't enjoy school. Um I I was just stuffed around in school, you know, shooting pen guns in the roof, telling my friends to say these words in Italian to the teacher, you know, like all these things, like you know, always getting in trouble, you know, shaving younger kids' heads on on sports trips. Like we'd done so much stuff, like it was just because we're just you know you were bored. I was bored, yeah. Like it it was, you know, I think it was one of those things, and as you get older, there's two people at school. There's academic and then there's hands-on, you know, and then you you I've well I was a hands-on because I excelled at those subjects, you know, whether it's PE, woodwork, metal work, um what do you call that? Cooking and sounds like food technology. Food technology, food technology, you know, those are those things that I like really did well at, you know, everything else I was okay, but maths I was good at because I worked in the checkout of the shop. So like maths to a point, you know, I would always in intermediate maths I'd excel, top the class, and they go into advanced, and I'd be at the bottom. Wow, because algebra and none I couldn't get through my head. That's uh exactly like me.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

When I look at algebra, I'm so confused. The minute you put letters to numbers, uh it kills me.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Baffles me. I was yeah, done, done like I totally understand. And then I was good at geography because I travelled a bit to obviously Italy and with my parents and stuff like that. And I played a game called Where in the World's Carmen San Diego. Used to be on the school computers, and then you travel the world trying to find Carmen San Diego to all these countries. Wow. So then I learned about every capital city in every like country, and you know, you so you're in geography, and so I really enjoyed it. Um, that one. But that's about it, you know. So then got uh went to Sydney for a school formal. A girl used to be in my class, she went to boarding school, um, and then I found a job while I was there. Apprentice, yeah, uh Dobinson's Cakes, um Palmer Street, Darlinghurst, perfect place to start. Right in the heart of the, you know, right in the edge of the cross. Uh, you know, back then that was a pretty wild area, and it's cleaned up a lot now, a bit, but like it's back then it was crazy, you know. First place in Sydney, and here I'm working midnight to eight in the morning, you know what I mean? At this in just in a little garage on and you know, the bakeries inside. It was just yeah, it was wild to to kind of start. So yeah, I went back home, told my parents like I've got an apprenticeship, you know. Can I leave? Well, I kind of said I've I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. Um, but you know, they wanted me to take over the family business, and I just said, Oh, look, you know, it's not for me. You know, I don't really I want to go and do this anyway. They let me go and only really reason because my older sister lived there, and they really you know, she had her head screwed on in the sense she was, you know, good job, went to uni. So I was like, Yeah, no, go you go live with her and um you know, see what happens, do it for a bit, and then come back. Yeah, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Yeah, so I just never came back. But um, but yeah, it was it was great, you know. Just something different. That's amazing. Yeah, it was pretty wicked. My sister drove me to work every morning, like I was only 15, so um, and then I just catch the bus home.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So that that really started, that's where you really started your career. And then what was at what point, you know, there oh everyone that I've always sat with, they've always had this aha moment where you feel like I've cracked the code. I know that you, you know, from 15 going up, you're to put th thousands of hours in. Oh yeah. Thousands, beyond thousands, all right? Yeah, pulling big days every day. Big days, every day. I could only imagine like for the level of technique that you go down to to the you know the the right balance, so everything that you that you achieve, even the finesse, I love to call your work hyper finesse because to me it's like exceptional. It's my probably one of my favorite uh types of pastry I've ever seen in my life. It's a big core. But for me, what I love to find out is when at what point did you go this is the road for me, this is what I'm gonna continue pushing in.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Oh, I'm probably about six months in, man. To be honest, I was pretty quick. I was very lucky in my job. I had a good bunch of funny mentors, like it was a good crew. You know, you can get into a job and and you just hate it because of the people, right? Yeah, um, it's not about the the stuff you're making, this is the people, like you know, but the the my first job, I was very lucky. I had a you know, great like guy running it, um, Sam, and and he, you know, he kind of like told me, you know, work hard, and you can be, you know, an eight well back then an $800 a week pastry chef when you qualify, or you can be a $600 a week pastry chef when you qualify, you know. And and for me as well, what worked in my way was like I didn't really have anything else to do. I was young, I'd come from the country, so I just stayed back and worked, man. Like and at after the shift, even I'd stay back and play around with stuff, and he let me. Um and then and then even the even the guys in the decorating set, that was amazing. You know, took me under their arms and sort of thing and showed me things and and even about life. Um, so I was very lucky to to have that crew to start with, you know, because it kind of gave me a good guidance and a foundation in a foundation of the foundation. And and I said to myself, you know, I love this, this is awesome. That's amazing. You know, I raced my other apprentice every day on make ice and cupcakes. Like it was just a I I loved it at the time, you know. It was a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And especially because you come from a sporting background, you would have found that challenge to continually chase, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:39

It was great, yeah. So um, yeah, it was a good start. And I I think that's a very important thing to anyone starting a career or uh in food is finding that that right um atmosphere, kitchen, kitchen mentors and and people to work with because it makes it a whole lot different.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

That's unreal. And you know, you've become known for pushing your creative limits in desserts, right? What drives your imagination in the kitchen? Like what is that what's that lightning, that's that lightning strike?

SPEAKER_03 11:05

I think just to make things better. I don't know. For me, like now it's about making better flavors, making things true to what you say you're gonna make. Um, especially like I, you know, you eat a lot of products out there and it's like this flavor and you eat it, it just tastes like sugar. You know, it's like it doesn't taste anything like popcorn or whatever, you know what I mean. So for me, it's always about like trying to give that the person that's gonna eat it, whether it's a customer or competition or friend or you know, or yourself even, that when you eat it, you go, yeah, I'm getting that. You know what I mean? So that that's one thing. And then also just I think just to be a little bit different, you know, I think you you gotta you your food is your personality, you know what I mean? So you you kind of gotta outlay that in whatever you do. Um it's very important to that people you know know you for what you do, you know, not just oh you yeah, you make nice stuff, but it's it's same as you know the person over there, 100%, you know, everyone's doing the same shiny glaze and sticking a piece of chocolate on it. It's gotta have more depth than that, you know, flavor, texture, uh ideation. Why did you do it? You know, I mean it's a bit hard now, but like in the early days in my shop, I I named everything and it had like a spark moment, right? Because you go, like, why is it called that? People come in and like, why is it called that? And I just said it's up to you. You think about it. To me, it meant something. Yep. Something maybe stupid, funny, quirky, um, rude, even sometimes, you know what I mean. But like to people, I said, look, you make your own of it. And if you get what I get, then it's great. But if you don't, you think of what you know what I mean? But it sparks the brain to start thinking about what you're gonna eat and what the product you've made already. Uh, rather than just going in and going, Oh, I'll have uh chocolate mousse cake and give me that lemon tart, and you know, so you know, some things you have to obviously like lemon tart, probably use the wrong one because you kind of keep it that because there's not much you can call that. But the the definitely the creative things over time, you know, we we call them some some weird names. Weird names and wild names. Not so much now, the world's got a little bit more politically correct and all those things, and it's a bit harder to you know not do it, like not be you still give them a you don't want to get it's cancel cultures very easy in our industry at the moment, it's very, yeah, so you just gotta be safe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Unfortunately, you know, I understand that. And and as and as a business and as a brand and especially as a personal brand, you know, you don't want people to perceive you in the wrong way. And and with social media now, everything gets thrown out of proportion so quickly. Um and we understand that. Like, and I think any hospitality professional would really understand that, right? And then there are some people that say, Oh, no, you know, just don't worry about them, push the limits. Yeah, but you know, you don't want to offend anyone because you genuinely appreciate what people think of of your product. Of course. If you didn't care, then then that that to then okay, do whatever you want, but then if you really care about your consumer, you really don't want to offend anyone in any wrong way. So I guess that's that's that's the case. But there must have been a dessert that you're most proud of. Ah, yeah, definitely. Which one?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Look, I think it's the the VA cake, man. Like it's I think it's one of those things that that um originally I created it for a special moment, Margaret Fulton's 85th birthday. You know, it was a cake that I got asked to do her birthday cake, and I was like, oh, what do I make? You know, and then I got that brief to say she only she likes, doesn't like fusion flavours. Um she likes vanilla, she likes chocolate. And that's so I was like, okay. Then I just thought about it for a while, then I thought, you know what, I'm gonna do eight layers of vanilla. You know, I'm gonna, you know, if she likes vanilla, I'm gonna give her vanilla, you know, no fusion, no nothing. Um and it's I mean it's got a little bit of white chocolate in and stuff, so you know, but um and that's how that kind of created the that originally, and then just sort of finessed it over the next few years to what it became um as a product in the store, and I went on Master Chef and so forth. Um, but it's just one of those cakes that people love, and and uh as you were telling me before, it's my family.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

My family's like we celebrated our most special moments with that cake all the time, literally, hands down. And my wife now um she continually says, I wish I could get you the V8 cake. She always says it's time because she knows that no matter what cake she gets in front of me, I turn around and say, You gotta try the V8 cake from Zumbo, you know. So, so uh so we're gonna make it happen. I promise you we're gonna make it happen. Um as you said, Master Chef, you've been on, you had your own show, Zumbo's Just Desserts, Sugar Rush. How did your how did your media presence change your business and your personal brand?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Oh, yeah, immensely. You know, I think at first I didn't even think about it. You know, there were opportunities that popped up. Oh, it started like in a in a row. So the last opportunities, yes, I I knew, but like MasterChef, for example, when I first went on Master Chef, you know, I was just a chef, someone called up and said, Oh, we need a crock and bush for a for a challenge. Can you help us? You know, we're having trouble. I said, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I can help you. They said, So can you make us a crock and bush, deliver it to the studio, um, give us the recipe and and organize, tell us what we need and and help organise all that stuff. And I said, Yeah, no problem. So I did that. And then the producer sort of said uh a couple days, well, not a couple days from I think it was about a week before, a week or two weeks before, bring your chef whites. You know, we got we we playing with ideas. This is season one, so they were still trying to get the traction. It hadn't really people were watching, but it wasn't like hitting. Yeah, my whole family was watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Master Chef season one, like in the last quarter of it, it hit like hard. That's when it started like smashing. But at the start, they were trying to get traction, so they're playing with the the format. And um, so he said, Yeah, bring them on. And he sent me out carrying the the the crock and bush, and and that was it. And that was a crazy, I would never forget that crock and bush.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

It was like a massive bird's nest, the thing that looked just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

That was amazing. You know, that started it and then gave me three more eps that season, or two more eps, two more eps that season, and then it was the build-up really to that which became like a boom effect on the business at the time, you know, because that was the time food was booming. Yep. Food was around, but wasn't like in everybody's how do I say, um, it wasn't in everybody's it wasn't everyone's first front of mind.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, that's but then all of a sudden people started investing, I call it investing, in different food experiences, traveling, going the extra mile, cooking themselves, buying the utensils. I grew up in Western Sydney. We had a dozen cake shops around, but to be able to drive out to Balmain to go pick up a cake was like a special thing for my family growing up as a kid, right? We're like gonna go here, or you know what, you can actually pick it up at the star. Yeah, you know, or mum used to love the macaroon towers. Yeah, right? So, like what I mean literally we used to travel far and wide. Yeah, so we used to travel through um, you know, during our uh for those celebratory moments, like we had to make the trek to go get it, but it was it was a nice feeling. Uh you you spoke a bit about your business there. What challenges did you face scaling your business while maintaining that creativity?

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Oh, it was it was hard. I think when you're in it at the start, like it's just like a washing machine, you don't really realise, but you you're just doing and going and opportunity, especially after those shows, opportunities are coming in left, right, and centre. Like to, oh, we put you want to put a shop here, put a shop here. And then being coming from just being a chef, you know, base chef, um like you just like at first you're like, oh, I don't know if I want, you know, but then you're like, oh, okay, and then it's like, oh yeah, we'll fit it out for you or whatever. Uh they throw at you in a sense, and um you're like, oh, that's good, you know, but you're not really looking at it like oh they're they're they're they're gonna clump you on the rent, you know, and all those kind of things that kind of over time build up build up, right? At the start it's all right, you're paying 160 grand a year, but in five years you're nearly over 200 grand, like you know, depend depending on all those things. So I think probably not having that back-end support from the start, you know, in the sense of building that framework um and the right uh direction of the business, sort of doing it myself, I think put a lot of cracks in the business in the long run. Don't be wrong, we lasted 12 years. That's a long time for a uh a high-end pastry business in Australia, but still Which is super hyper niche, super hyper niche, but still we probably you know, I think if maybe I don't know, you just don't know. But like it's like maybe if I had that right.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, I'd do that. And man, to be honest, that's why I pivoted from what I used to do, where I used to be on the other end building those stores. Yeah. So you used to come to me, pay me to build your stores, design them, fit them out, uh, go in and get it done, take your money, and then I'd hand you the key. And I've built I've delivered close to 650 projects across the world. And um there was a point where I said, you know, after consulting so many T1 companies, like I designed the kitchen in TikTok's head office to feed all their people and stuff like that. I was like, imagine I could help small business owners and chefs who don't who have the most amazing product but just sometimes don't understand the numbers. If I could help guide them on a lease negotiation, if I could help guide them on you know their fit out spend properly and be on the client side, that would get them that stable foundation like you had when you went into your pastry business, when you went into your apprenticeship. I want to give you know operators and hospitauxpreneurs, is what I like to call it, that leveling playing field and get them that right foundation to get them going. So then we come in as a covert mentor. So it's you, your front of the brand, and then we would come in on the side, analyze all the numbers for you, do your food costing based on the products that you have, and go, okay, well, hey, if you don't account for this, you're gonna get caught up in GST. Hey, what do you think of rent? You know, in five years' time, this is what's gonna actually really happen. You know, if you're thinking of exiting, well, is someone gonna actually be able to buy your business? What's the exit plan? Yeah, totally. Right? What's your lifestyle like? Are you married? Do you have a kid? Do you know how many hours you're gonna put in? And there are some people that like even yesterday at the show, they were they were coming past saying, I've got this fantastic idea, I want to start this. I'm like, great. And they're like, we want to sell it to cafes and restaurants. I'm like, awesome. Has anyone tried the product? Like, no. I'm like, how much do you want to invest? They're like 150k. I'm like, that's great. I said, but has anyone tried it? And they're like, no. I was like, okay, well, have you set up a market store? And they're like, no. I'm like, well, will you set up a market store? And they're like, Oh, a market store, I have to take the gear to the markets, blah blah. I'm like, if you can't run a market store, how are you gonna run a shop? That's how I started market store, yeah. So you gotta put the hard yards in. It's not like click your finger fingers, blow your money, you're gonna print money back out.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

No.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

And and that's what you know that's where that um sort of ethos comes in for us. It's it's we just want to help people navigate those trying times and and get them set up in the right foundational aspects and then be there for them when they grow, you know? Yeah, totally. Um so that's that's what we do. But I I man, I totally respect for you to be able to do that as a chef with no no experience on the on the back end, yeah, and create an amazing brand and a personal brand on that back end is is we did it all internally because we had no backers, we had no nothing.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

So it's you know, yeah, I made a lot of mistakes. I mean, totally let a lot of people down, yes. Um, you know, but um look, I mean, there's still good things to remember in there, and as you said, build a good brand.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Um you've collaborated with big brands like Arnold's. Yeah, you know, how did those like for you how'd that feel?

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Um awesome, like amazing. Um, surreal, you know, I mean, first person to ever collaborate on Tim Tams. Um, I mean, that's something I'll always, you know, remember, and um, you know, it it it helped make me a household name as well. You know, I mean, obviously, Master Chef was it, but it just helped trigger that further in a sense having a product that was so iconic and everyone kind of ate and having your name on it. I mean, it's and people still talk about it today, even from overseas. I meet people and they're like, Oh, your Tim Debs, I love your Tim Dames. You know what I mean? Like, you obviously can't get them anymore, but when he did, they were like they were so into it.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

And it's we need to come back on those Tim Thames, man. What's one piece of advice you'd give young pastry chefs looking to make their mark?

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Um, just look, I think it's about how you gotta have you gotta have a true passion, you know, have a true outlook that you really love to do it. It's not just a hobby. You know, I think a lot of people get into it, see the decorating, the finishing, the plating, you know, and that's um, oh it's beautiful, I want to be a you know what I mean? And that's great. You know, if you love that, that's awesome. But maybe do a blog or something. Um if you really want to get into hospitality, you know, it's you've got to be able to have thick skin, work long, like work hours, be able to be flexible, work hours, take, you know, criticism, um, never stop learning, you know, get yourself back up every day. Doesn't matter, you know, everyone's gonna have a shit day. It's not it's not not immune to it. Um, but also they've got to be themselves. Do you know you want to get in hospitality, don't be a sheep, don't follow. You know, you're gonna have a head chef who's a mentor and uh an idol, you know, but but that's not telling you to be exactly like them. It's saying build your own profile. Yes, you have to be respect what you're doing in the workplace and do it, but outside of that, you need to start developing who you are. Um, and then one day when you get your break or you take your own direction, you know you've got that. Not you don't stand there going, oh, I can't, I don't know what to do. I can't you meet so many people don't have the confidence because they're not developing themselves throughout the process, as well as like learning and being respectful to what the their workplace. Do you know what I mean? And I think you need to do both at the same time. Um and I I don't know, it's probably don't come into hospitality thinking you're gonna make heaps of money. I I that's if that's what your your driver is, you know, it's not it's a wrong thing. It's you know, if it gives you a satisfaction that you love to live with, then great. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Thousand percent like I've got I've got friends of mine in you know in the tech space and stuff, and they see how many hours I put in for my clients, and then they're like, Man, you know, you could PM projects for like tech companies, you could help launch successful stuff in all this sort of things. I'm like, but I'm not passionate about that. Yeah, I'm not passionate. My entire network and my friendship circles are all in hospital. Like, and I I actually love and I enjoy it, and if I don't have a meaningful purpose, money doesn't my money is not everything, you know. I had a really large organization before before I exited, and you know, I had 80 professionals under me at the age of 25. But money does not drive happiness, happiness comes from the stuff that you know you love seeing, like for me to be able to help someone launch their venue, launch their business, get off the ground, support their family, phenomenal. And you know genuinely that they're taking the right punt at this, the best odds possible, right? And that's where I find my you know my purpose in it, and I and I feel like hospitality is such a beautiful community. During your uh business phases and as you were growing into you know, into that 12-year run, you know, call that a bull run where you were rushing through, you faced some heavy financial financial gains and as well as as well as challenges. What was the biggest challenge you had?

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Oh, I I think just it was just always the back end the office, you know what I mean? Uh opening stores is I won't say it's easy, but it's like you know, it's not the hardest part, it's actually like maintaining those stores, making sure everything's operating um financially on a on a healthy level, right? I mean, when we kind of got to the end, I mean thing big thing was I mean a smart move in the end because I I bought we well as a business, we bought our central kitchen, the building. Big big had three tenants upstairs, our kitchen was downstairs, 1600 square meters, you know, massive building. It was a great investment, but probably too much for the business where it was at. In the end, when we went administration, that selling that building took the bank out of play, luckily enough. You know what I mean? Otherwise it would have been a different would have been a different ball game. Different ball game. So I in that sense I say that it's that, but it's I mean, still a lot of people lost out, you know, creditors and all those kind of things. But it's it's um I so I I have the respect for that that you know that's that's that's not about what it's about. But financially I think it's investing too much too fast in growth, you know, and not having the income to match that same support along the way. Because, you know, yeah, we opened a couple more stores after we did that because to have a big kitchen like that you need 20, 30, 40 stores, right? Becomes a beast. Becomes a beast, but you you need money to get to that, need money to to burn, you know, because you know you're gonna lose money to get to that. A lot of companies do it, they burn it, they burn cash, they've investors, it just chugs money, and then eventually, you know, if the product's right and the brand's right, you you can flourish that back out the other end. And but you know, we think we didn't get there, and a couple of our stores were just you know, flops, put a sword through it all. Um, and then when you're that tight on finance, um it just collapses.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, it's tough, and it's tough to especially you know, maintaining trying to maintain those relationships with all your creditors too, as well. Um, and there are a lot of people that are probably gonna listen to this that that are you know sort of in that in that potential phase of of shit, like what am I gonna do or or what happens? What's the best way that you could recommend them to navigate that?

SPEAKER_03 28:52

I mean you need to you need to have someone who's telling you the truth, you know, like not telling you, yeah, yeah, yeah, borrow more money, do this, do that, yeah, we'll just take another loan. Like all these things, you know. For me, that everyone was just telling me that all my life. Yeah, open another store. Oh, we're gonna open another two stores to try and make this money to counteract for that. Rob Peter to pay poor. You know, it don't work, man. You know, you need someone to tell you straight in the face, you know, let's shut this thing down. Well, this has got legs, in the sense of, but even before that, you need someone before you open a place to help you structure that financially, look at the outcome, what's your worst case scenario, all those things that you know sometimes you don't think about because you're saying to yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah, what a great spot. You know what I mean? We've got great product, it's working over there. Don't mean success, man. Do you know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter if you've got a shop pumping in one suburb because the other suburbs are completely different. And depending on your spot, the people, you know, like for example, open store in Chatswood in the train station, you know, thousands of people, right? Humming past. Why they're not stopping? They're gonna catch a train to get to work. They don't care about getting their daily cakes. Do you know what I mean? And um, you know, that's something I learned. It's not always about people. Like the the vision the vision. You need to get data, you need data, you need to stay there. What are these people doing? How are they reacting? What are they, you know what I mean? Because it doesn't mean that they're there all buying food or whatever. I mean, they are, they get a coup might stop for a coffee, yeah, but that's about it. They're not gonna so it's you know, you you gotta be able to capture the moment as well. Like if if there is a lot of people, can you capture them or can you not? Yeah, can you actually service it, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Yeah, you're you're a thousand percent right. And you know, for any of our clients that we host or that that that we that we help, I literally tell them, I want you to go sit and camp out this location and don't count the foot traffic, just look at the activity within the businesses around you, right? Okay, if you're gonna be able to save 80 grand of rent to go in a backstreet, are you gonna become a destination?

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Are you gonna become a destination? What does it take to become a destination? No one was going to Balmain. You made Balmain a spot. Balmain was known for pubs and drinking, not beautiful patisseries, my opinion, in those years. So, you know, capitalise on that. That it it it's it's a journey, you're going somewhere, it's a thing, and and people will come, you know, and then you then have that money to burn that you're not blowing on rent each week to invest in marketing, pump it up, your opex runs down, your actual operating expenses are dropped, right? And then your marketing expenses they raise, but that's an investment. Well, operating expenses is a liability. Yeah, you know, so horses for courses, you know. If you were just trying to be a um, you know, like a uh a little espresso bar with ham and cheese toasties in a menu master oven that'll spit it out in 15 seconds, great. You have team of four and you pump out nine dollar combos, if that even makes sense these days anymore. But that's what people in Chatswood are probably chasing. They're jumping on a train, they can't miss it, they're in and out. The same thing under apartment buildings. I tell this to all my clients. If you think the people in the apartment building are gonna come down for a coffee every single morning before they go to work, there's no way. They want to go to work, and while they're at work, that's when they want to leave and go get a coffee. Yeah, the next one. They want to have a break, you know, that they want to drop their stuff, throw it down, and and go. Even where I live, I don't go up the road to get a coffee. I get to work, get to my office, and then I'll go get my coffee. You know, so that's I don't know, my opinion, that's where I see things are at, unless you're in a retirement village. Horses for courses again.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Yeah, you know, but um but you know, it's one of the biggest take from like like developing places trying to get you into that. They'll say, Oh, we've got 3,000 people in the building. Doesn't mean anything, they're not gonna come. You know what you're not 100% and most of them won't, you know, because it's downstairs. They want to go, some will. Yeah, but yeah, you've got to weigh all that up. Thousand percent, my man.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

You're here at Food and Hospitality Week. We're in Melbourne, we're in a bus doing a podcast. We don't feel like we're in an expo right now, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Um, what are you doing out here at Food and Hospitality Week? Uh just doing like some demos on the petisserie stage. So, you know, just doing that. Got a fashion parade this afternoon with um Straight to the Source. Um, and I'm here. Amazing. I'm in the bus. Amazing. Hold for Dojo.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Well, you know, you've been you're an iconic guest for us. One, it's a it's a core memory for me right now. Uh I'm gonna I'm gonna hold this moment for life. So thank you so much. Thank you for uh providing my family uh something to share over celebratory moments for many years, and uh we look forward to you know staying in touch. And anytime you're in Sydney, you just got to call me, please, because we'll take you out for dinner and and host you. We'd love to. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Thanks for having me, and it's been amazing talking to you. Amazing. Thank you so much. Awesome.