SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this episode of the Hotspur Dojo podcast, I catch up with Damien Hopper. He's the managing director of Bubba Pizza, a family business turned franchise that's grown to more than 20 stores across Australia. We chat about what it's really like growing a business, how the company scaled without losing its roots, and what it takes to stand out in the competitive pizza game. Damien Hopps. Hopp or Hops? Hopper. Hopper.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, but I guess I go by the name of Hops or D Hop. Yeah, something like that. My cool boy.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

D Hop. Hey. We've got a fan outside.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Tune into the podcast, bro. Yeah, you can sit outside and check out. Like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

That's it. Hospital Dojo. D Hops Bubba Pizza.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

A Melbourne institution. How many stores do we have now?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

We've got 17 at the moment. We've got two in the Adelaide Hills, and we've got a pretty good spread across uh Metro Melbourne down to Torquay and Geelong. That's amazing. Yeah, it's good. It's been around for 25 years now, which is a long time. Family business? Family, yeah, yeah. Mum and dad founded it around the year 2000. Um yeah, which was pretty cool. Like Rog um my dad, uh, he was in Coles and Bilo for a lot of many years. I remember Bilo, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

I used to have a Bilo my local.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, yeah. So that was big in SA, and that's where we were from originally. And um dad worked his way up there, and then uh Coles bought them out, so we moved to Melbourne, um, and then he met a lot of people in shopping centres, and that's where he met one of his Lebanese friends who had a pizza shop. And like Melbourne pizza culture is ri there's a lot of a lot of uh Lebanese people, and that's where a lot of the pizza um culture came from. And so he met a couple of guys. Oh, he met one guy there who had uh one shop, and uh he was like, you know, this is doing pretty well. Do you want to join in? And he um quit his job where he was at at the time and uh went in for this one pizza shop and did really partner like a partner. It was a partnership for the first couple of years, and then they got up to I think probably three or four shops and a couple of restaurants. Um things didn't weren't quite working out, but uh my dad and mum were really passionate about the pizza, and the other guy was keen on on restaurants, so they split, it was not a bad one or anything like that, and then yeah, my um, and I would have been probably 15 or 14, 15 at the time. So me and my brother grew up uh through high school working in the shops, um, learning the craft, uh, and mum and dad were out there uh you know running the the business and growing it. So it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And what style of pizza do you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Uh it we started from the the Melbourne sort of pizza, the the Kotto, the shredded ham, the the five dollar pizza back in the day. Um I guess it's kind of your corner store pizza shop. Um we were very price-driven in the early days, but we're very good at it because dad um had his experience with merchandising with Bilo and holes, so coupons and things, like you know, it just yeah, he brought a lot of awesome skills that um and marketing and yeah, and marketing skills where um and his other partner brought in um you know the peak the that Lebanese pizza culture, which was was awesome. Um and then and nowadays we're we're um premiumizing, we're trying to sort of separate ourselves from the rest of the competition. We're we're bringing in uh some slow fermentated dough, uh some shaved ham. Um, you know, we're improving, we're going from the black olives to the calamato olives. So we've been slowly doing that over the last five years, which is probably arguably not the greatest time to do it when people are having less and less money. Um but I think we um yeah, we're really passionate and and um focused on on product at the moment, um, which is yeah, it has been challenging, but we're really confident because we're only priced sort of one, maybe two dollars more than the average uh pizza joint. So pretty confident that for an extra dollar or or two that people get a way way better pizza.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

That's a that's amazing. And and with your stores, is it a franchise model? Is it a licensed model? Is it all self-owned?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, it's franchise model. It was really hard early in the days. I think we probably got up to about five shops in our name, um, but it was so hard to manage. And um, yeah, it was it was a lot with a we had a we didn't have a cafe at the time as well, but the franchise model was definitely the way to go, and that's what helped us sort of grow. Uh, and it was a steady growth, like it was it wasn't like you know multiple shops every year. It probably worked out to only be um you know one, sometimes two in a year. Um, but we were up to 22 uh in COVID, and we we've taken a couple a little bit of a back step. It's been pretty tough. Um, but yeah, we're we're looking to looking to start growing towards the end of this year again, just steadying the ship a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

That's great. And you know, it it there there are there are plenty of organisations out there that you know um you know you need to make those those hard decisions on closing a store. We can't let emotions get in the way.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, I was listening to yeah, one of one of your uh snippets on your Instagram, a guy was talking about, he's it might have been you, I can't remember, or an interviewer, uh E, about uh looking at people's menus and and people make their menu based on their own emotions and what they are. That was me, yeah. Yeah, it's like it's it rang true because you're right, like, and and we're looking at one or one or maybe two shops this year that might not be a part of our next sort of gen, and um we've got a I've got to you know forget about the 20-year history that's behind it and yeah, it's a it's it's a hard one, and it's a really hard one to you know it's easier for me to say than for you to comprehend and actually push it through.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

And but the but the only reason why, you know, I'm very empathetic with with history, and you know, I come from from a family where hospitality has been in our veins for many years. Um my grandfather, when he came here in the 70s, he that's that's all he did, yeah, right. So um, but you know, throughout throughout the years and throughout my f my family's businesses, I've seen more fails and successes. I've seen more closing, closing of restaurants and openings, right? Yeah. And uh when I leave when I dig down deep and I and I understand the psychology behind it, a lot of it was emotionally driven. Yeah, a lot of the menu was emotionally driven. Yeah. And you you can stay true to like we had a podcast with Emma from Brown Brothers, who's a fourth generation winemaker. Wow. 167 years. Yeah, that's a legacy.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, it's huge.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

And for them, uh going into the zero uh uh uh alcohol market is a big big step, it's a side step, something that they're not it's it's never been a variety on their program. And they were late to the market, but why were they late? They didn't want to put something on the menu that they wouldn't drink at their own table. So it's very important to still stay true to that, yeah, not just do something because it's a fad. Yeah, yeah. Like they could have been early adopters and launched something straight away. Yeah, but you know, when they're holding a legacy like you're holding a legacy 20 years, it's not easy to hold, mate.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

No, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

You know, the average life cycle of a business in hospitality, seven years. If it's a good business, yeah, before they sell it, before they move on, and if it's a great business, I'm saying you're holding a brand for 20 years, so you gotta stay true to your foundations and your integrity and don't forget that. But it's okay to also move with new products and new development that the market's demanding because market shifts and market changes. Yeah, it does, yeah. Alright, so whenever I whenever I um am working with a with a client just like yourself, I always go down to the root of the foundation. I say, okay, what's our what's our foundational values here? What's everything that made Bubba's Bubba's? We won't change that. Yeah, yeah. The coupons, the experience, the value. Yeah. That's not changing. Right? Um, but that if there's products that we're just keeping there to suffice one or two regular clients that have been there for five years, mate, they're not paying the rent. They're not paying the bills.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah, no, exactly. And I think for us at the moment, it's it's not because there are there are brands like us growing at the moment, they've been growing through COVID, and we've got to just focus on ourselves and we've got to think about the next 20, the next 25 years of Bubba, not right now, and 100%, you know, the the rocky boat that we've been on.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah, don't don't look at like okay, it's good to look at your competition, but don't use that as a e-marker of success for you. If you're like how could these guys rapidly grow and we're still at 20 stores, don't worry about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, that's true. It's it's hard to do, it's easy to say, but um, yeah, no, we're we're sort of because now that we've just Josh and I, my brother have taken over the business, a succession plan went through about a year ago.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Uh, which is a really big thing, and not not uh, you know, I'm not sure if you saw the TV show. I always say it's it was similar to the TV show, but not as many helicopters involved. But it succession was not not an easy thing. It was really hard for mum and dad to let go, and it was really, really hard for us to to get to the point. Yeah, yeah. So but that's it it's all been through now, and and now as I'm saying, we're looking at it as a new business. Um, we've actually got yeah, got some uh new business partners coming on board as well, which is really exciting for us.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

So well that's man, that's that's that's great, and that's gonna help you uh evolve and grow further. Um as you've been growing in this space, can you share some of the lessons you learned about leadership and managing teams as a business has expanded?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I think that's they're just the most important thing. Like the people that we have in our team right now, like James, um, he's out there listening now. Like he without him, we we would have really struggled through COVID because we had to take on a couple of company stores. So the most important thing is to to look after the people that have got your back and that um that sort of stay true to the the company's values. Like he he understands the service levels, the the quality of pizza that we want. Um, but yeah, he's kind of like uh Mr. Fixit for us. So we've got to make sure when people like him come in the door that you you make sure that they're the most important thing because that's peep without people, uh without good people, it's really hard to grow and rely on things, especially as you're expanding. You've got to put people in a place and and move on and look in other areas, and you've got to really trust that person. And that's the same with a franchise partner as well, a really good franchise partner versus maybe someone that is not following the the processes as well. You've got to um yeah, that I mean that's just as important for us.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

And how do you iron out those franchise partners?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Uh that's pretty tough to be honest. Um yeah, I think it's about uh I think it's about bringing them in and and making sure that they're ticking a lot more boxes uh back in the day. Growing things, we would always sort of just take the take the the cash holler. Whereas now we're starting to well over the years we we learned that you you've gotta try and you've got to make sure they go through a much more stringent process and find out what their motives are because there are a lot of ulterior motives. And agendas. Yeah, agendas to buying businesses, so and yet that catches you out, and you don't and you sometimes you don't know until you know six months down the line that it was just a passive investment for them, which is a pretty common thing. So getting better at those sorts of processes is something we're focused on, and our new partners are going to be helping us with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, and let's unpack a little bit more on those on those franchisees. You know, what if if somebody wanted to buy a franchise, but you know, what is the truth behind running a franchise store like a Bubba's?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I think I was just I was doing a a TikTok on this the other day. Um someone said, Oh, I'd love to have a shop, and we thought, well, well let's respond to this, but like you've you've got to understand that you're giving it's pizza and it's five o'clock five till eight o'clock, Thursday to Sunday is when you'll make most of your money. So you've got to you understand that that's probably one of the biggest sacrifices that you're gonna make is those that you know the the personal time that you used to have, you're not gonna have that anymore, and you're probably gonna be like hospitality demands more than 40 hours a week most weeks. Um so you've got to understand that there's gonna be really big sacrifices like that to be made, and that's I think that's one of the the biggest things early on that people that shocks people, they're on their feet for fi for 50 hours, and it's real physical, but then after a while you got the best most successful pizza shops are the ones that have the same face there every um you know every Friday night, and you see them. It's like coffee culture. You want to you there's a there's ten coffee shops you can go to and you can go into one, but the one that I prefer to go to is the one where it goes, oh hey Damo Hawaii, have a good day, and like they hand it over and they give you that little bit extra. It's I think pizza culture in in Melbourne's very similar if because a lot of the pizza is is is the same, is is similar, but when that when there's someone who goes, Oh, you know, hey, hey Paulie, what's going on, like that m that means a little bit more to me.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, you're making a personalised experience, and actually um I did a podcast with Nat Tapon about why Starbucks failed in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

I saw that.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

And and one of the reasons was there was a lack of personalization.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Right? For the same price point. You've got to remember you're playing, there's a ceiling for a price. They were charging more and you're getting less value. Not it doesn't have to mean value in the actual cup itself. Yeah, okay, their packaging might have looked cooler and probably felt better, but you're losing that customer interaction, that personalised experience. Yeah. They're uh, you know, they're actual tangible things, they're things that people you can't put a price on. No, it's true. And they're things that people remember for for forever. So, you know, when like for example, where I grew up in Weatherall Park, um in Sydney, uh a deli had closed down that was there for for over 60 years. The minute that place closed down, I that's it. I wanted to leave the area, and I did. I actually did. Really? Because like it was like a big part of of that, and for me, it showed me that area was changing. Um, and it's like, well, we're losing our heritage here, we can't, it's not getting rebuilt. Um, and and when that deli closed, it you lost a personal interaction. Yeah, it's a big personal interaction, right? Yeah, um, so it's it's I I totally get it, and I guess that's why you know um Bubers is successful, is because you have those those core franchisees that stay in the stores, yeah that are fake that are that are present and they reap the rewards, right? Yeah, yeah. And what's the what's the benefit of someone joining a franchise rather than starting a store out on their own?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I think we just sort of take take all the the bullshit off them and we handle things. We have the the technology set up, we have all the systems in place, the the recipe as well. Um so we we obviously we train them for six to eight weeks um and we support them ongoing. We're starting to invest a lot. Um actually, what a sort of a big change we're making at the moment um is taking on local marketing for franchisees as well, and actually investing um some of our own funds into doing that. Um because it you know, we want franchise we've always said, you know, you guys got to do your local marketing, you've got to get down to your footy clubs, and it's still true, but it's very hard when you've when you've got so much on your plate to do that. So one of the um the new initiatives we're doing now is actually myself, um I'm doing it uh myself is making connections with the local footy clubs and and managing the the sponsorship arrangement, just the initial one, and then they can carry it forward. Um, but that's yeah, it's a at least you give them a head start and a good push start at part of your programming, and set it up properly, make sure the sign's in the right spot, make sure the agreement's done properly. And the the hard things always for them is the initial cash outlay, and that's always been one of the big uh roadblocks. But if we can we've now taken that off them, uh and we're trying to help them because uh most yeah, really successful pizza shops have a really strong local marketing game. Um, and that's something where yeah, we've we've always sort of let let to for them to do, but it's the reality is uh, you know, a lot of people don't don't really focus on it, so that's where we're trying to do a little bit extra at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Man, that's a uh, you know, as a as someone that's worked with many franchisors in the past and built many stores for many brands across Australia, uh consulted places in the US, the fact that you're now taking the initiative to localize on that location and you're going in personally and delivering on that value, on you know, that value add for them, yeah, that's really setting the foundations in its in its full footprint to give them something to succeed upon. Yeah, you're you're stabilizing the foundation, you're not leaving anything loose, right? You you're eliminating any marginal error here. Guys, you just got to renew that agreement. We've locked it in. Turn up to a sponsors day. Turn up to a sponsor's day. Make sure you deliver on the product. Yeah. Make sure, of course, every product's got to be delivered successfully for each and every customer. But if you know they're a sponsor, they're a VIP. Look at Seagrass, for example, Meet and Wineco. Their VIP program is phenomenal. And I don't know if you've ever realized it, but if you're nominated as a VIP to Meet and Wine Co. in a Meet and Wine Co, they'll etch your name on a knife.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Right? And you'll be at a restaurant, you'll be sitting down, and they'll put the knife where your seat is. They know who you are, they'll put your knife down. If you decide you're in Melbourne, you fly to Sydney and you're a VIP, guess what they're doing? Your knife's gonna be on that table when you go there.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

No way. That's awesome. How do you become a VIP? I only gotta spend enough money. Damn.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

But that's what I'm saying, and that that's that's that's the the VIP experiences. Yeah, it's those one percenters. When you go to a hotel and you're a VIP, yeah, right? The same thing. It's it's it's that loyalty, it's that membership, it's making them feel that they're a part of something, it's belonging, and that's what people go for, and it's that personalization that you were talking about before. That's cool. Right?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

I really like the idea of um your own personalised pizza pick delivery bag to come and pick it up, take it home, got a family name on it.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

You could think of it, you know, they're there you you can come up with those ideas, and it's a if it's someone that orders every week, well, what's the cost of a pizza bag to retain a customer? Yeah, you know what the cost is to retain to gain a new customer in this market with social media marketing, right? So they're the little tactics like for me and Wineco, what's the cost of a steak knife and going to go get it etched at a um at someone's it wouldn't be much, no, right? They've got the knives there, they just go etch it down the road. You don't have to air freight it. But what's the value?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, the long-term value.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

The long term, when someone goes to a table, oh my god, that's your personal knife. Yeah, you could go do that tomorrow and have a personal knife at home. But look, the the feeling that you had to have that at a restaurant, that's the difference.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

It's like that the barista saying, Have a good day, Paul. You know, it's that sort of touch that they've done that really well. That's that's cool. I feel like a steak now. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Uh if if there's someone out there that's got a couple stores and they're they're they're tossing between wanting to start a franchise, what's one piece of advice you'd give them?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

If they've got a couple of stores and want to franchise, well, definitely um make sure that the people coming in are aligned with the way that you do business, the way that you speak to customers, the way that you value um your customers and your recipe. I think that's uh a really big sort of lesson for us. Um and you know, and not not blaming people that came in, blame um I we take accountability for the people that come in, um, for the good ones and and the bad ones, but that's that's the way the way you've got to take it.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, so like I want to just unpack a little bit more of the truth. It's the behind running a franchise. It's not all glitz and glam. Like sometimes you guys got to sign the head lease. Yeah. Right. So, what's that look like for a potential franchisor? Like, what are the risks?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

The risk, oh, for a potential franchisor, yeah, you take on a lot of risk. Like mum and dad's houses, they'll they're all up, you know, very early, and you've got to now now me and my brother's uh houses are on the line. You if you want to expand quickly, the best way to do it is to sign a couple of leases, build the shop, open it up, and franchise it down the track. But you've got to have a lease, you've got to put a bank guarantee up, you know, you've got to have assets, you've got to you've got to risk it all. That's yeah, exactly what you're saying. Like, um, you've got to have it, you've got to put everything on the line. Um, and and to do that, you've got to really believe in in yourself and and and what you're doing, and that's part of this new partner, new partners that are coming in for Josh and I. Like, I think the best part of that all is that we've got people that believe in us as and they want to support us and believe in the brand. So you've got to do that yourself first. If you're gonna have other people, whether it's a business partner or a franchise partner, you've got to have you gotta really sort of be confident in what you're doing and be prepared to risk everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, and that that's really critical, like what you said there uh before about starting the stores and then letting them go. Yeah. Rather than just selling off a new store.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, like a greenfield. Yeah, yeah. So green fields are tougher to do, especially at the moment with you know, costs are up around 300 to 350 for a a standard pizza shop with brand new equipment. So there's you know, um, you've got to have someone who who's gonna like well, you've got to find a a finance like a bank that's gonna finance that, which you know, hospitality is probably not the most one of the toughest markets to finance at the moment. Yeah, so you know, and equipment's ex it's very expensive in pizza. You don't have to replace it very often. The ovens are great and and the equipment's great once you buy it, but um, you know, you've got to uh you've got to remember that yeah, like that sometimes it's easier to open up the shop, and that's how a lot of our growth came is by opening up the shop uh ourselves, running it, and then finding a franchisee who comes into a busy shop rather than that risk of buying something and opening it up and and it not you know paying the dividend straight away.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

That's amazing, man. I just you know I look forward to seeing what Bubba's has for future, and I really look forward to seeing this journey, the new generation taking it on. Yeah, congratulations. I know it's not always roses. No, that's all good, but uh you know, you've given us some insightful tips uh to people prospecting, looking into franchises, to people looking to start their own franchise. You know, you've been so open and so genuine, and I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope to see you at 100 stores.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Cool, thanks, male. I'll see you on the bus, back on the bus for a hundred.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

That's it, a hundred percent. We'll be in a jet.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Awesome. Thank you so much. No, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Take care.