SPEAKER_02 0:00

Where pizza's becoming these days, it's almost gastronomic, right? Back in the day in the 90s, it's General Mills flour, 50 pounds of this, 10 pounds of that. Now it's percentage, inoculations, flowers, grains, fermentation. Fermentation in your world in chefing and restaurants that you're designing. What is the most exciting style of restaurant concept that you see?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

I appreciate what do you see the next pizza trend to be for 2025?

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Oof, this is a big one. The big trend that's happening right now is the work.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Well, Al, welcome. Thank you. The pizza butter here in the flesh, Sydney, Australia. I know the temperature's a bit different here. Oh no, actually, it's pretty good where you're talking about it. It's pretty similar. You guys got a little bit more humidity here. Yeah, a little bit more. How's the uh how's the people?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Enjoying everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Love in Australia. Everyone's super nice. Kind of, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yeah, maybe because you can't understand us.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I don't get the lingo yet. They're probably talking shit by my own.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

One million percent. One million percent. Um, you actually have origins from here. Yeah, my someone in your family was here back in the day?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

My father, my dad is from England, and my grandparents and my father lived here uh in Sydney before they ended up moving to the Philippines, and then moving to Guam, where they end up ended up having me in 1984.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Right. So So you you you there's there's a part of you somewhere here.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Something and and just so like being from England and how Australian people are, and just always as a kid growing up, where's Guam? It's it's above Australia. And people, oh, I know where Guam is. You gotta find this little dot on the globe. So it's it's always been amazing to want to come to Australia and see the food scene. I've heard just meeting you and knowing you and seeing what's out here. I'm like, this is like another planet out here in Australia, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Definitely a different level. I think the one thing we've got here is we've we have such a diverse culture. Yeah, we have so many different nationalities. You know, being Australian isn't, you know, it doesn't mean you were just born and raised here. You you can migrate here and you become an Australian, and that's a beautiful thing, is everyone that comes to this country can find a sense of belonging. Right. And with that sense of belonging, is you bring a piece of your nostalgia, your childhood, your your your you know, grandparents' recipes, and people bring that here. And Australia is a place where you know it's it's a land of opportunity, it's the land of the free, it's the land of a free voice. Um I kiss the ground that I walk on. I love this place to death. And it gives people, you know, the opportunity to find their find their their other communities. Like Sydney is a city of villages. I live in a city which is Sydney, and it's a city of villages. You can go to different suburbs and you'll find a beautiful community that's nestled and they they empower that community. It's not like you know, you have the same food all over. You know, if you're going to Cabramata, you're getting the best Vietnamese food. You know, if you're going to Lakimba, you're getting a lot of Middle Eastern food. You know that if you go into the city in the CBD, you're gonna have like nice fine diners, you'll find some really cool sandwich shops, some espresso bars. You know, if you go to Marriottville, we're gonna get something a bit quirky, you might find something a bit vegan. So that's the cool thing about Sydney as a whole. We're we're dense, right? But we're still small, like we're nowhere ne dense as estates. Right. But the the the amazing thing is the food culture here is is like next to none. And we're early risers, like we're everyone in Sydney's like 6, 7, 8 a.m. Like it's super early morning. Cafes are open from 5. They close at 3 though, so like it's a bit different to the other side of the world. Like when you're in Europe, I was struggling when I was in Paris, everything's open at 10, 11, and I'm like, man, I'm buzzing awake. Yeah, I can't get a coffee. Yeah, but it doesn't close till 2, 3 a.m. So it's a it's you know, it's a different side of life here. Uh you feel like you get more out of your day because you're up early and you're out and about. So, yeah, and and it's always like no matter where I am in the world, you know, I've seen that you've been traveling a shitload. Last year I traveled a lot, and I think that's where we found some common ground that we're always like missing each other on planes. You're gonna be here, I'm gonna be there. We can never make it happen. And then, and then even if we tried to plan this, um, you you're here, which was amazing. Uh, we have something in common, which is you know, we love calling a place called home, and I guess living out of a hotel room isn't the glitz and glam, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

No, no, no, it isn't. It's it's definitely a challenge. You know, there is that feeling of getting home and having your home shower, the first home shower.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

1 million percent.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

And you know, living out of a suitcase and and having to figure out how to do laundry in the restaurant business. It's like it's not like corporate world. You're like, okay, I'll wear that suit tomorrow. Yeah. When we're going in this game, it's like I've I've swept through three shirts already. I like need laundry, and my aprons are doused. So that's always the challenge of living in a suitcase, I call it, right? We've gotten really innovative. I mean, before we went on this last trip, I get excited about suitcases these days. I'm like, I could tell I'm nerding out on traveling too much, I'm finding efficiencies in how I do my pack outs.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

So talk to me about that. When I was in Sydney and I was going to Japan, I had some work in Tokyo, and then when I was in, I told my wife before we left, I told her the backpack I wanted to purchase in Harajuku and which store it was in, and I called them to make sure they had it in stock. And it's the only place because they make this backpack. So I I flew to Tokyo on like without a backpack, and I made sure, like, God strike me dead if I'm lying. I walked it, I I made it a mission. I was like, we're going to Harajuku and I'm buying this backpack, man, because it's got like it's my life. And now I walk around with this thing and I'm so proud. I'm like, this is my backpack. You know, this is my backpack, you know. I'm hopping on buses and trains, and we're just like, and she's like, she just can't fathom. Like, you could not find a bag in Australia, you had to buy it from this place. And so, man, just let me buy my bag, right? That's all I needed, you know. But I I totally get it. You get you get you know, you get geeky, you like try to find efficiencies. We're finding efficiencies in everyone's businesses every day, man. We've got to make our life efficient.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Come on, yeah, for sure, 100%, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Well, you know, I know a lot about you, so this is a bit funny, but like I don't want to skip through the podcast. I want to give you the opportunity to tell, you know, the Hospo Dojo community, the Hospo community of Australia and the world. We've where this podcast is airing in 25 to 30 countries a month, which is great, and I'm blessed. So I'm gonna give you the opportunity and give you the platform to, you know, tell us a little bit about the pizza buddha, how it came about, your story, where you're from, how you know, um, how you came about, you know, mastering the art of pizza. And then and then I'm gonna dive into your I will never forget you told me you got an 8.3 on a bar stool. Yeah, was it a 8.3? 8.1 and 8.1. Yeah, we've had that we've had a bar stool. 8.1.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

So that that's huge. Dealing with clients who have had portnoy come in is is definitely fun. I I have a current client right now who I'm working on in Brooklyn, who was also another Portnoy, 8. I think 8.2, and designing their second location, but understanding all of their efficiencies and how to deal with volume after a portnoy.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

We'll go for it. So, how'd the name Pizza Buddha come about, man?

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Pizza Buddha is one of those things, I don't know, it's probably back to the first tattoo. I have a giant Buddha tattooed on my arm, and it was my first tattoo uh done by Chris Sawyer in Hawaii, and he's an iconic tattoo, and Instagram was new back in my day, and I was like, what's this Instagram? So I was like Pizza Buddha, and never took it seriously. And as Instagram got trendier, everyone had the trendy Instagram names, and I was like, all right, I just posted random photos of my travels. I didn't know shit about like what the fuck is this Instagram thing, right? And then I started getting into the restaurant culture, and then I feel like you know the Kardashians are coming out, and you see everyone online now, and the Twitter's in, and I'm like, okay, people are making platforms out of this, their business. So I eventually took that handle from just watching other pizzerias to starting posting content about projects or restaurants I was working in. So prior to the consulting company, I was actually a director of operations for restaurant groups. So I was managing multiple restaurants or pizzeria operations on the high level. You know, all of the finance, ordering, staffing, high-level issues, new sites, managing current sites, um, everything from working in high-tech. I've had a stint working out one of the most, you know, ludicrous money startups in pizza there ever was, which was Zoom Pizza, the soft bank funded startup in Mountain View, California, right next door to Google. So there I am in Silicon Valley making pizza with robots, with a company valued at $9 million at the time. So it was like living the Facebook dream and food. So that was my real exposure to automation, automation scale, efficiencies. We were making a lot of frozen pizza. I was exposed to traveling to all of the mills, understanding grain all the way down from farm to restaurant, right? How is that chain handled? How is that pricing being handed off through distributors all the way to me, Joe Schmoe, who's the pizza guy just trying to buy a case of pepperoni? How did that happen? So, you know, Pizza Buddha evolved, and I give a lot of credit to the consulting platform to my wife Carly. She really pushed me to go, hey, you have this. I notice you're consulting a lot and you're working for these other pizzerias. Why don't you just consult and do pizzarias? I'm like, you're crazy. There's no way I'm gonna be able to just consult and live off of consulting and doing pizzarias. And a year into it, we've been home for two months and you know, we're pretty bugged. And it's exciting. We're very blessed and very happy. But the whole mission of Pizza Buddha and my platform is to really help the operators who feel like they can't get help, right? Guys who feel like they know it all, but then they eventually get to that point in I don't know it all, or yeah, I made it work this way. That that that kind of pride gets peeled away of like, let me ask somebody for help, right? And that's how I'm trying to make myself accessible to the world is call me, Instagram me, I'll show you what I'm doing online, meet like we're meeting today, right? Who do you know? How do you how do you how did we get to know each other, right? And it's a sense of community, which I've always believed the hospital industry has been, right? It's a sense of community. This is a whole subculture that's going on in the restaurant business. You can ask an everyday person about, you know, chefs all over the world, they won't know who that is, but you tell them the restaurant, they're gonna go, oh yeah, I've been to that restaurant, right? But nobody gives the credit to the chefs or any of that kind of stuff. So, how do I empower operators? That's what I'm doing with the platform. How do I help deliver pizza in all shapes and forms to clients all over the world? That's what I'm really focused on doing. The biggest mission in the whole thing is empowering staff. Coming in and inspiring team members or chefs or culinarians who have felt like they've worked under a head chef. I mean, we're having the moment right now here in Australia on an on-site for a project I'm working at at Pizari. The staff have just been line cooks. They've worked under chefs, but from documentation and process, I'm able to empower this person who we decided to take on the team. And he's looking at the doc. I've never seen a prep list like this before. I'm hearing this kind of, you know, I've never seen it like this. I've never seen the production all blocked out by hours, and it's on a Gantt chart, right? So we're managing labor and production all in one sheet. And he's like, wow, I don't have to write the prep list on the whiteboard and get all these people to do this. Or I don't have to hire all these full-time staff. I can hire part-time staff and have a lot more leads, so I'm able to have more salary for my team. So, yeah, it's really the people. I I love when I can two days ago we were teaching guys how to spin dough. Two guys from Nepalese never spun a dough ball before, but they understand flatbread, right? So once I can break through, like, hey, this is a gas bubble that we work three days to get it this way. Don't go and start jamming all that gas out. It just like, oh my God, my heart like breaking pizza. It's it's really that, right? And the word pizza becomes so general, but where pizza's becoming these days, it's almost gastronomic, right? It's the level of detail that's going on. Back in the day in the 90s, it's General Mills flour, 50 pounds of this, 10 pounds of that, and it wasn't even pounds. It's here's the picture for the yeast, here's the this, two scoops of this.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

See you later.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Now it's percentage, inoculations, flowers, grains, fermentation, fermentation, rooms, fermentation rooms, sourdough holders to hold starters and keep them.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Vegas, yeah. It's a whole nother world, right? It is, and I guess where that comes from is the access of, you know, well, the platforms like Instagram giving creators the ability to share what they're they're doing, and that's educating different, you know, people at home. And pizza's a, you know, it's something that's that's something that's designed to share.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

And it's and the other biggest thing about pizza, as we just mentioned, not only is it shareable, it's internationally known.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

100%.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

So with uh everywhere we've gone in the last year, I mean, I've never seen so many faces from I've opened so many shops and seen these faces looking at the pizza and tasting it, and that reaction is just like mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

It's an international, like it's an international cuisine, something that's that's transferred everywhere. And you know, uh where I find that you and I have a direct correlation is that we pretty much without knowing started the journey at a similar time.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Funny enough, and we have a common denominator that both our wives really helped us out in this process. Thanks so much. So so if we if we were to say something here to any great man, you can be a great man, but you need a greater wife, and that's and that's that's the truth behind it. Because here is two living proof of what happens when you have someone behind you, you know, can be your wife, can be your best friend, can be your partner, whatever it is, but your wife to my wife to me is my best friend. So your wife is the same. And I believe that you know you just need that person, that one person to believe in you, and if you own that, then anything is in yes, anything's possible, right? Yes, nothing becomes impossible. And and it's beautiful to see that the fact that you've made it to this country, you're doing a consult here, that's an achievement. You should be glad, bless, you should be blessed, and you should be grateful for you know what you have, and I'm sure you are. Being the Buddha, you're like all about Zen. It's amazing. But um, yeah, man, it's it's it's I I really just want to, you know, I I'm so excited because there's not many people that have gone down this journey, and I guess we can unpack a lot for everyone who's in this headspace of like how the hell did you guys get here in this consulting space and and and what you do? And it's just I find without even talking to you, I can talk telepathically about you know our passion for what we do, and it's it's really about the reps. Like the way that you consult pizza, it's not because you woke up one day and said, Hey, I'm gonna consult pizza, it's because you did the reps, you did the scale, you open hundreds of stores, right? And it's it's amazing to see that you like I believe I operate in a hyper niche, and you're even hyper niching my hyper niche.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

I get it. Right. Like, think about that, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

So, like for us at the Hospo Dojo, and what I do as a consultant, as a food service consultant, is I can talk to a fishmonger, a butcher, a pizza chef, a um a baker, and I could lay out their space. Yes. And I understand all the different menus.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Then a part of the dojo is we bring in different senseis who you, my friend, uh, uh a black belt Dan 3 sensei in pizza. There that's a point, is we bring in someone like you on board on the side when it's like, okay, we got a pizza gig. Right. Paul can lay it out really functional. Right. Sensei come through, cross-check this, right? Do a peer review and a collaborative approach. Is this right? Okay, well, let's dial into the pizza. Is it Chicago? Is it New York, Neapolitan, Contemporary? All right, Paul, we need to make a bit of adjustments here and there. But you and I talk on a really similar wavelength, and we get to the point a lot quicker than the tool and fro between a designer, between an architect, between, you know, a client and someone else, where we bring the client into the dojo and then we get we let them walk out with a key. Right, absolutely. And that that's the whole point of of how we do things at the dojo. And the beautiful thing, and like I said, is that you found this. Um, how did you, you know, besides your amazing wife telling you, you know, give the thumbs up to corporates and see you later and let's get into consulting. That what was that aha moment for you when you go, shit, like I know my pizza?

SPEAKER_02 18:40

You know, it it it I couldn't tell you. I I I I don't I I would say I I would say I would say my aha moment was probably back in Sonoma County when I built out Acre Pizza. Acre Pizza was the first brand that I built out after uh working at Zoom Pizza. And during that time I'm working at Acre, I'd also consulted a bread bakery that, you know, blessed enough, bigger than a Portnoy review, was written up in the New York Times for its bread. So that was an honor, and that's where it really started to click. And I was like, people are listening to what I'm doing. And then podcasts started coming, and you know, I'd gotten on, I'd I'd gotten on what's good dough, I got on pie to pie. In America, we have smart pizza marketing with Bruce. I'd gotten onto those platforms and I started getting a lot of questions. And I was like, there's something to be had here, right? How do I channel this into a space similar to a dojo to where I can bring them in? And let's let's let's tear apart everything right now, open the doors, whatever's going on. It even gets down to uh are you and your wife talking? Are you are you talking to your partner? I have when's the last time you've seen your kids, right? That's that to me is is is that kind of space we need to get to because everybody has a family, everybody's going home, whether it be corporate or independent, they're still going home to someone, and what is that life like?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, well, I guess you know, for hospitality operators out there, um, there's a lot of people that are individual operators. Right. You know, being in the countries like the US, the UK, Australia, even in parts of, you know, I've consulted in in in East Africa so far, and and like this consulting send me to different parts of the world, but there's a common denominator here, and what's common is is entrepreneurship is lonely. Yes. If you don't have the right, if you don't have any business partners around you, then you really cannot communicate with anyone else, but you know, you then you're having all this internal dialogue in your head, right? Right. So what I find is that, you know, the purpose of of of our help, whether it's you, whether it's me, right, is to be able to have that open conversation, that dialogue with you're almost a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Yeah, you're it's it's a therapist. I I tell my clients, I'm like, hey, this is okay, therapy session, clock in.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

You know, funny enough, before I start a mentorship with any client, um, I actually conduct a character test.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

And that allows me to better understand how that individual thinks. Yeah. So if I have someone who's, you know, out of the ranks of they've got honesty, compassionate, um, love, um, discipline, whatever. If if I've got someone that ranks number one for honesty, and I know we're starting a new business, you are not negotiating the lease.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

So I'm gonna train you on how to negotiate. I'm not telling you to be dishonest. It's really about just educating you and making you aware of what you say and how you say it.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yes, you can't say too much, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Exactly, because at the end of the day, you're in a business operation. And there are vultures in the world. Yeah. You're dealing with sharks. Yeah. It's a big ocean, right? And there are a lot of people that in this time when there's a euphoric state, uh, there's high emotions, when you're, you know, about to wanting to sign a lease on a particular tenancy, these real estate agents they really play on your emotions, and that's their job. Like whether you're an agent listening, and I know real estate agents listen to this podcast. Whether you're an agent, I'm not taking a stab at you, but it's true. Like for you to do your job and execute and get get a higher figure on on your on your client's demands, it's you playing on emotions. It's a salesman, it's what they do. Right. So it's about better preparing our client in regards to okay, how can I do that? But hey, I've I've only met you like two weeks ago and you asked me to negotiate your lease. Right, right. Like I'm dealing with a client right now. I started a mentorship last week and I'm in a negotiation for a lease right now. Wow. Wow. Like how do I how do I get up to speed that quick? Well, it's about understanding the environment, understanding what the outcome is, understanding the business case. Okay, we can piece the numbers together, know the demographic, know the product that's going out, great, but I need to know about you. And the quickest way I do that is through a character test. Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

So Yeah, I would say I would say similar, you know, in the Pizza Buddha Temple, I call it, we do an intro call. Everybody has the ability, they get on a 30-minute call with me. Prior to them getting on that call, I fill out a questionnaire. And a lot of it is the basics, but in that call, it's really kind of a character test, right? I'm kind of feeling you out. Are you really into this, right? Some, you know, a lot of the times it's they're hitting me with all the problems right away, and I'm like, well, let's get back, right? Like, I've gotten into calls on that intro call. I see the husband pan over to the wife, and she's on the call too, and I'm like, okay, so now we're getting somewhere. She's spilling the beans about the restaurant, and I'm like, now we're getting somewhere. I this is how I can help, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

And I guess the only way that we can help in any of the work that we do is just being about transparency. It's 100%. Like we're gonna figure it out one way or another. If you if you're hiding something from me or you're hiding something from Al, we're gonna we're gonna work it out.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

I I tell clients all the time, I'm like the doctor, right? You can't come to the doctor and just kind of circle jerk them and be like, ah, there's something that hurts here. Well, where, you know, and oh, let's take some extra. You gotta get to tell me what's really going on in there, or I can't help you, right? So so a lot of the times it is direct. A lot of the new work I'm doing these days is a lot of design and looking at layouts, right? That is the biggest thing going on right now is how do you build a super efficient kitchen, right? Which I I see a lot of what you're doing on the dojo. Your kitchens are razor sharp, right? And the high-level kitchens where you're doing full service dining, it's insane to see those build-outs, right? I'm like, wow, he gets it. Look at that symphony of an orchestra going in there. For a guy like me in your world, we get off on that kind of stuff because I'm like, wow, look at all that stainless steel. He's even matching the hue of the stainless steel across the board, right? These are things that not only create efficient kitchens that look good, but they also operate really well, right? In the pizza land where I live, it's having a clean pizzeria, an efficient pizzeria in a small space is what's gonna create amazing pizza, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Not just that, it gives your staff the want to work for you because think of it, right? I don't know what you pay people in the States, but in Australia we pay, you know, $30, $35 an hour for someone, depending on depending on what level, from $7 up to $45, $50, whatever the case may be. So let's just use a round number of $20 an hour. If you offer a line cook $20 an hour to work for you, they come into your space, they see your setup, they work it for a day, it's inefficient as shit. Yeah. They go down the road for $18 an hour, but they are not working anywhere near as hard. They're doing more volume, but they're not working anywhere near any more near as hard as what you had them working in. They're gonna take that $18 because less stress on their body. Yeah, it's less tolls. It's like you can't send a carpenter to go build a house without timber and right. Like it's yeah, you need the right gear. Yes, you can make do to get a concept started. Yes, you can buy secondhand equipment. I'm not here telling you to buy the latest gear.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah, I we do the same. You know, it's it's uh we we we spend money here and we save a little bit there so we can get those dream items, right? It's what is a what and it isn't no, we can't buy that. I'll tell you when we can buy that, right? When when should we be investing in the dough rounders and the dough dividers? The amount of calls I get from, I want to buy that dough divider. And then when I get into the call, I'm like, how many pizzas are you making? I make 80 pizzas a day. Why do you need a dough divider? It just looks really cool. And then I tell them the price, they're like, whoa, you know, these things do, they're very expensive, but they're really meant for volume, consistency. A lot of the time, the automation that I'm bringing into the kitchen, multiple styles of pizza, multiple styles of dough, right? We could be doing Detroit, round, Neapolitan, New York. I got four different mixed doughs that are in different formats. How do I make that piece of equipment work for all four doughs, right? So that's a lot of the like what what we're going in, helping them do. Um, you know, a lot of the documentation is is key, right? And that's what we're arming pizzeria's with, right? Having clean SOPs, clean pickup charts, clean ordering guides. It's just simplifies the world.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

We've got such an amazing synergy. Yeah. It's phenomenal. You know, it's it's I'm so happy. Yeah. So happy because I can't help everyone, nor can you and that's what I told Carly on the way here.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I was like, listen, the dojo is we've been trying to link this together for so long. And and I've uh all the way down to Bali when you and when you and Daniel were in Bali, I was like, dude, how do we get you somewhere? Right? And to bring it together and and utilize the two of us, right? If it's a client calling through me and they want to do a pizza shop, but the guy wants to sell seafood and pasta, okay, Paul, we got to do a collab on this deal, right? 100% down to the call last couple weeks, you know, where you're calling me, and I don't even remember what country we're in when we were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

We're trying to get a deal in the States over the line. Like it's just it's it's crazy, but we just got to keep that communication open. 100%. And that's that's how we channel it. But the fact that you're here, we're gonna have so much, so much fun in Sydney. But you know, what I want to peel back on is, you know, you worked the line, you've worked, you've worked the front line, you've worked in the heat of the kitchen many times. So if there's someone that's listening to this pod and they're, you know, they they've done their they've done their reps right in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

And they want to start transitioning into that more ops role that you were doing. Right. What's that step look like?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

You know, it's really taking control, right? It's it's where that curve happened to me in my career is once I started doing things that were no longer asked and I stopped worrying about the clock, which is kind of crazy to think, right? When you can eliminate that the hour, dollar per hour that you're thinking of getting or the short dollar you're trying to get now, but really understand looking at the restaurant as a whole, right? Try to put yourself in the shoes of the owner, right? That's why I feel like in my career I've really leveled up. And even speaking to owners when they hire me, I'm like, listen, I know I'm the manager, I know I'm the pizza cook, but I want to treat this place like I own it, right? If I see something broken in the back door, I'm gonna make sure I message the operator or owner right away to get that fix because how much does it, how much does it cost to fix, right? And the last thing I felt like where it was a turning curve is don't be that person that's coming with all the problems, right? The biggest level up I felt like I've had in my career, and I tell this to people who I'm trying to mentor and and get to those next levels, is go to that operator with the problems, but immediately have the answer for the solution, right? And vet out the solutions with the operator to where they don't even have to think.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

They're like build build out your network, build out, find out who a good technician is. If you have gas equipment, find out who get three techs on your mobile number, right? If you need a cleaner, a commercial cleaner, make sure you have them on par. And if you're entering in a role, call these guys in and invite them for a slice. Right, right. Just get them in. Just say, hey, I'm working here now. I want you to see where I'm working. So if I ever call you, it's it's hey, you know where I am, you know that I need you. Yeah. And it's about really, you know, that's one thing in the kitchen that, you know, it's funny that you say this because it's just coming to me now, and now I can see because this is this is the stuff that I give to operators, but your network is truly your net worth.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Right. It is. Right?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

And and it's that's as quick as things are gonna get fixed. Yes. Right? So if you if you're taking on a leadership role, the first couple weeks that you're in there, you can tell the the venue owner, the investor, whoever it is, you're gonna say, Hey, I'm gonna invite some of my other external stakeholders in. Um, let me know who you deal with for XYZ. Right. Let me know who your preferred technicians are, who your refrigeration mechanic is, who your electrician is, who your plumber is. Get all these contacts. Have that black book ready to go. Right. And invite them over for a coffee or a slice. You know, have them even look at the equipment. You have them come look at the gear. Make sure you want to do a walkthrough. And it's just building that connection, building that rapport. So when shit hits a fan, it's not the first call that you're making to them. Right. It's the third call of saying buddy.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Or it's the best is a text message. Yeah. And they already know who you are. It's like, hey, need you for be right there, right? We've all had that, right? And you down to the technicians, even down to the vendors, right? I'm I'm always been the kind of guy. I look back at the you know, Anthony Bourdain, back when he wrote Kitchen the his book. Anthony Bourdain was always that guy where he's out back meeting the delivery truck in the fish munk. He knows the guy's name, right? He knows uh if he isn't showing up at 10:30, something's wrong, right? You you understand the cadence of those people's lives, right? And when you build that rapport with those people, maybe you're working at a new job and that same delivery guy's there, and you're like, hey, good to see you again. Same example, right? And hey, I saw so-and-so at this location. Wow, he moved, right? You never know, and I always use this. The amount of distributors that have called me to work for them is insane because of that rapport, right? I've I've even joked with distributors that I've been in this so long, I know the manufacturer numbers on the sides of the boxes. They kind of chuckle when I meet a distributor and I start calling out not even the product name, I'm using the manufacturer's number.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

That's me with appliances. Yes, yes. You can ask me anything about it from an ice machine to a glass washer to a pizza oven. Yes, to a deep fryer. I'll give you the model number, the year it was last manufactured and edited.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

We're missing a big show right now in America. NAFM's happening this week.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

I know bummed. It is, but again, like they're they're great shows. Don't get me wrong. They're shows. But they're shows.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

They're shows. They're shows. They're shows.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

That's the best way. And the best way to say it. And look, I'm a food service consultant, so we get invited by by NAFM and NAFUS as a whole. Um, and I love it. But at the end of the day, my priority is my clients. Yes. So if if my if I don't have I've got like some really on the ground project working in Sydney right now, I know that I can't move. No. I'm dealing with like an institution that's been open for close to 40 years coming to their 40th year anniversary, and we're about to do a reno. I'm not skipping country until this thing's done. Like I didn't care about it.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

I don't care about the new friar.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

So um, and Al, like through your travel, what I'd love to know is how do you keep this is just a personal question. I I deal with it all the time, but how do you deal with keeping on top of things? You know, you're traveling in between different countries and different time zones. What's your sort of go-to strategy? How do you hold your routines down, Pat?

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Prior to leaving, um, we normally build out a timeline. So we're building out a timeline, and I do a lot of remote consulting as well. It's not easy sometimes. I remember being in Kuwait and we were in Kuwait and I had to be up at two o'clock in the morning for my client in Manila because it was an important meeting. But you got to do what you gotta do, right? And we set a lot of time out um for those things and structure and and you know, personal headspace time. But having organization is key, right? Well, before we come on site, the client knows where we're gonna be every hour of that day, right? And if there's any altercation from that, we let them know. Um, I don't know, it's it's kind of wild. We spend a lot of the time between the the site and the hotel or a one-stop restaurant before we go to bed that night. So it's it's a small square footage. But now, before it was always a lonely place prior to me getting to do it with Carly. So now we're doing it together, so we bank off each other. Um, that's been a big help. She's keeping me on my toes. We're having her on the team is is huge because anybody who's communicating with me, your direct link through me is actually through Carly. So a lot of the communications are channeled through her. She takes care of the calendars. So wherever I am on site, you know, meetings like this, we're we're well aware of it, right? So it this morning we were up at 5 a.m. and got through a whole mix and moved a mixer today prior to coming to this and uh had to talk to an electrician about okay, make sure when you hook up the three phase, the bowl's spinning clockwise. He goes, Yeah, I was just gonna ask you about that. I go, Yeah, I know you were gonna ask me about that. That's why I'm telling you now before I leave because I don't want to come in tomorrow, the bowl's going the other way. So, yeah, those kind of things. You know, it's it's it's fun. You know, Sydney's amazing. This is a fun city to be in. I was telling Carly earlier, I was like, the food scene here, but it's crazy. I feel like we're spoiled in America coming here to Sydney, right? I don't see Canbro here. I've had to, you know, get used to like, wow, okay, Tupperwares.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Canbro is Canberra is here, but it's a dime a dozen. You need a look and you need an order. Order. Yeah, you need an order. And especially now with the US dollar.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

It's not cheap.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

It's not cheap. And that's been the the traveling these last years. That that's been exciting for me as a as a you know consultant. And I even reached out to you coming out here. It's like learning all of the different things in the different countries, right? The smallware. I always call it, all right, we're going, we're going to the restaurant, smallware shop, and I can't wait to see what we find in this place. So you know, I've seen everything from Pauline ovens in uh in a restaurant supply place in the middle of Kuwait, and I'm like, man, that's like the the best oven in the game. I can't believe this thing is just sitting here, right? So it's cool seeing all the different stuff out there.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

That's amazing. And now, like for you, uh, what do you see the next pizza trend to be for 2025?

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Ooh, this is a big one. A lot of people are asking this. The big trend, and I said it last year, the big trend that's happening right now that I think will be popping is the word crispy. And not and and I say that in a general, you're like, what the fuck, Buddha? Crispy? My pizza's already crispy. It's crispy in multiple forms. It's crispy in the form of IC tavern style is gonna be a huge thing this year. Uh age tavern is big, it's been going on for years. Nick and Vito's have been doing it forever in Chicago, but it's making waves of guys going, oh, I see starters are are fading away. Guys are like, oh my god, messing with the police was such a pain in the ass. Now, like, my directo is so much better. I feel like it's so much easier on my team. Yeah, guys, we were overthinking everything. Everyone got on the wave of because they saw somebody do a starter. Oh, I need to do a starter to my dome. I'm like, dude, stop overthinking. Your pizza's amazing. Cracker is in. Um pizza a lapala is gonna be big this year.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

So you gotta, we gotta get photos of this stuff, Ben, because yeah, he's talking to me in foreign languages. Yeah, this is this is you guys haven't even seen.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Australia is that Sydney has not seen this yet, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Sydney's pizza scene.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

And I say it here, being, and it's nothing, no knock against Sydney, right? It's it's Sydney has a lot of Italian immigrants. There's a ton of wood fire pizza here.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

There's a ton of Neapolitan. Ton of Neapolitan. Uh, we're getting a start on contemporary. Yes. There's a couple people that you're gonna meet in the contemporary world. Right. Uh, Mateo Hernandez, Daniel Gigi's, uh, the boys that uh make it, and then there's also maybe Frank's does an amazing, amazing Neapolitan pizza. Um, you got Pizza Ultra, which is like that contemporary style, right? So there's a couple pizza guys out here that that are really crushing, they either go hard at the Neapolitan and they do it well. Yes. Okay, or they're playing in the contemporary side, but then like your traditional greasy New York slice, we've got a contemporary Australian pizza that gets run through the Middleby Marshall.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Oh, yeah, I've seen it. You've seen it, I've seen it, and I was well aware. George told me before I could wait till you see a Nazi pizza. Yeah, and I was like, holy damn, what is that?

SPEAKER_01 40:30

That's our football pizza. Yes, uh it's not even a bar pizza. That's a foot, that's a Friday and Saturday night football pizza. Yes, and that's got like it's just heavy. Fuck. Heavy, heavy. It's but you know what? Can I just say this? I'll say this openly. For a takeout food, and it's a Friday night, and you're having a six-pack of beers by your side, and you need this pizza to come sometime during the football. Yes, right? It's gonna come, it's gonna retain its heat because it's so thick. Yes, and you take that bite, you burn your mouth, and the cheese is all shit and whatever. Yeah, but you you just eat it.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

I no, no, not I eat all pizza, I don't discriminate on pizza.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah, but we don't really have like a thick, like Detroit or a deep dish.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

What we did at Pizzas.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

There was a guy called I was a kid, and I can't remember if it was Arbar Pizza. Was that such a thing?

unknown 41:24

Arbar.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Never remember. I don't know. I I I have this name in my head, Arbar's or but it was just a thick, what's that thick, like 10,000 layer pizza that you guys have in the States?

SPEAKER_02 41:35

What Chicago style? Is it Chicago style? Chicago style. But it's like a pie.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

It's a full pie, man.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah, it's heavy duty. But that's like Yeah, and they take forever to cook. It's the toughest pizza concept to execute. Guys who do Chicago style, I mean, it's one of those pizza styles. It's your dining time is an hour 45 minutes because the pizza takes 45 minutes in the oven. Wow. It's insane. You gotta cook it super low, and it's gotta cook super long, you're gonna have this soup of a pizza. It's like ramen for pizza if you fuck it up. It's insane. So that's that's in, you know, what we're doing, what I brought here to Australia, uh, Pizari is what I like to call that New York contemporary. It's elevated artisan New York, right? High hydration dough, super wet dough, 70% hydration dough. I've I've spiked it up with a little bit of whole wheat. So it's got a little bit of malted barley in there, a little bit of some texture. It stands correct and direct, I like to call it. It's gonna hold when you hold it up. There's no flop. This is uh I've already tagged them. I said, Sully, I got another one for you. It's in Sydney. So find them down here, get them on Paul's pod.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

And if if if if Dave Portnoy ever came to town, fuck.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Oh, it it's it's it'll happen, you know. If they get gambling here, we could get we can get a barcelow up.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

You gotta get him out here, man. You gotta get it.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

So I've been watching the pizza scene here in Australia, you know, prior to meeting you for a little bit longer than that, but really watching it since you and and and Daniel Dobra and what he's doing with chefing here in Australia and and the internet, right? And that's what really caught my eye for you guys, right? I'm starting to see, and what really was when I saw Daniel Dobra doing all his techniques, I was like, who the fuck is this guy? This tattoo guy talking like me. I was like, this guy's got the rubber band on the ball, bottles. I was like, dude, this guy's thinking like me. Either he's smoking a shitload of weed or he's like, what do we do?

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Shifts the creative.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yes. So I seen that and I was like, the internet is changing to where guys are giving out their information, right? Guys are willing, and that's what I I'm using. We we're willing to give out the information if people are. Willing to take it and run, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

One million percent.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Take it and run and make it something that you can do better, right? And that's what I feel like we do as consultants. We're passing off knowledge to some people that we've known, we've made mistakes, we've had failures, so we know what that pain feels like, so we can translate that to them and be like, yo, if you don't keep in this marriage, dude, this is how you gotta do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

And like what's what's one, you know, there's a common denominator with your clients. If there were, if you were to sum up one critical piece of advice you'd give them, just say there's a struggling operator sitting at this table right here, sitting in this corner, and he's he's his head lost, losing money, bleeding every day, no sense of direction. What's one piece of advice you'd give them right now?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Look at the menu. Look at the menu, is it too big, right? Because it's almost 90% of the time I see it, there's emotions tied to a menu item, right? When I see an operator like that where emotion is tied to a menu item, I start to get really worried because I start what else are we emotionally tied to in the restaurant, right? The key to success in the restaurant business is yes, have emotion, have a heartbeat, but don't let the menu or uh a system remaining. Put the emotion somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Channel that channel that to your comments, yeah, channel that when you're when you're when you're talking to them, making them feel great about their day. Yes. Don't get emotionally attached to business decisions.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yes, yes. That that is one of the key things. And and don't be scared to ask for help, right? And and message somebody, right? We live in a world today where I can message Paul Ashnot trying to be like, dude, I love what you're doing. We gotta, we gotta somehow do something together and and and and work together somehow.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

That's how we did it.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Right. And here we are in Sydney together.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

I slid in his DMs and like, yo, yeah. Um, I'm gonna give you a bit of role reversal. I never do this with anyone, but I'm gonna allow you to take the floor and ask me any questions that you wish you could ask me. Uh, I never do it with any of my pod hosts, but I feel like, you know, being a sensei and a Dan 3 in a black belt of pizza, you have all right to ask me whichever question you like.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

You know, I I would say for you in in my world in pizza, in your world in chefing and restaurants that you're designing, what is the most exciting style of restaurant concept do you see?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Great question. For me, you know, I um I appreciate real food. I appreciate when chefs are able to leave, you know, a simple fruit like a pear, a pear. They don't have to go like full molecule, they don't have to make it a puree, they don't have to put it into a gel. Yes. That shit doesn't excite me. What excites me is can I pick it from the harvest and cook it on simple in simple techniques and make the most simplest food taste fucking amazing. That for me is a skill. Because sugars and additives and gels and gelatins and setting and hours and blast chilling and process, you have all the tools, you can make everything refined, and it's it's gonna taste amazing. And you're gonna take someone through 15 courses of degastation takes a fuckload of work, 150%, right? But for me, it's not the tweezers, for me, it's the how can I make this simple fucking piece of meat taste like the best piece of meat I've ever had in my life, right? And that's where the utilization of you know live fuels like coal and wood, yes, and the utilization of of seasonal vegetables, of seasonal products in its purest form. Right, that's what excites me. Is is everything in its purest form. Yeah. As close to as possible. Yes. That for me is like that's my personal preference when I eat.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

When I cook at home, I cook on charcoal. When I cook in the backyard, that's what I cook on. Right. That's me. That's what I enjoy. And that's what excites me. When I see a chef that wants to deliver something on that line in in fine dining, in the purest form, phenomenal. Yeah. Because it brings a sense of nostalgia.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

It's a sense, yeah. It's a sense of nostalgia, it's a sense that it hits. Yeah. It's like, man, I I tried that mulberry when I was a kid. Well, how the how'd he fucking do that? Right. What the fuck? No, it's just like more. Today we'll add a tasting um on a pod for one of my buddies, and they do this thing where um they cook you three different dishes, it's a really fun pod. And he brought out this dish, and you had to be like eyes were closed, and I had to just smell it first. So I smelt it, and I was like, Man, I remember this smell. It smells like my grandma's cooking. What the fuck is this? And I and I take a I take a bite and it's like a mussel, and it's got like it's got this rice, and it's got a bit of lentils, and I and I hit it, took a hit, and I said, Man, this tastes exactly like what my grandma used to make as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

And this is how he ate it. And he had this mussel, and he had like this rice and a bit of lentil, and then they made this cream out of chicken fat. And we used to make this dish as a kid, was like a rice and like a lentil-based dish. My grandma would cook like some chicken in the oven with sumac and and really like heavy oils and ghee, and then we'd have like a salad on the side, but this guy just put it into a muscle.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

And I was just like, bro, that for me, that's food. That's like if you bring a sense of nostalgia or you enter someone into your nostalgic world, yeah, that's like yeah, you've nailed it.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

You fucking nailed it. You nailed it. No, that that that that should be the mission in, I think, culinary, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

It's it's a sentiment.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

It's in pizza, right? It's the best. You know, wow, that bite, right? Or that memory of when you were a child, or when your grandma, if you can do that, you've create and you can translate that from you, the chef, off to the to the diner, you're gonna just blow their mind. It's it's you've sold them for life.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

One of the best pizza I've ever had in my life. Was that pizza maramuro or maratomuro in Tokyo? Have you heard of him?

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Oh, yes. Killer. And those are from the I was just talking to Angie from Savoy on the way over here, and they're training a new Savoy. My number one pizza is from Savoy, and Tokyo is a good one. Savoy is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Savoy is Tokyo's killing it in pizza, dude. If you killing Australians, because you guys are visiting Tokyo, you need to check out these pizza joints. Savoy. I couldn't get to Savoy. Every time I went to Savoy, it was closed, man.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yeah, they're there. We got weird hours, and they're all right. The last time we were in Tokyo, we went, it was snowing. The restaurant was closed, so we met the pizza chef, and the one guy like what he was he was holding a dough scrape. He's like, I need this at the other restaurant. And I go, wow, so pizza. This guy's running to the other shop to go get the dough scraper to open. So he follows us all the way back to the other Savoy right around the corner, and just like amazing, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Pizza, pizza martamuro or marmuro. I'll confirm it, I'll put it in the pod.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

But yes, he's killing it. I've made it.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Man, and it's it's that's pure coal. Yes, not wood. It's like it's like wood and coal, and it's just like hearth. Yeah. Cooking on hearth. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

The Japanese. I mean, they're gonna kill it. They I just see it like in pizza, they're just razor sharp and they're so meticulous. And the way they stretch, it's what it takes, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:07

And another great pizza. Uh, obviously, we're gonna go past a couple today. Uh, but you know, the the beautiful thing I see in pizza, especially this contemporary style that people are going into, is that nostalgic of flavours, breaking the breaking the barrier of what can go in a pizza, but keeping it within the realms of respect to the pizza.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yes, yes. I like that. You know, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

It's respecting, hey, we respect, we respect that this is an art form, yeah. Uh, but this is just us adding our contemporary value to it. And and there are guys that do it, and there are things that you look at it and you go, man, really? You went there? Like seriously, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Pizza Ultra, they go places, man. They like do some fucking and you're like, whoa, really? Yeah. Westwood, have you heard of Westwood Pizzeria? Westwood is Westwood is great. Westwood, Bella Barada's really good as uh West Sport. Like, I can take you for a drive around here, we'll get like 10 pizzas and you'll see. Um, but yeah, Sydney's Sydney's coming up. Uh, it's always been there. Melbourne used to overtake us many years ago, but we've way overtaken them. Sorry to my Melbourne listeners, but I see a lot of Melbourne pizza guys out there. Yeah, Melbourne's like, you know, Melbourne's cultured. Melbourne's really cultured. Sydney's not cultured. Sydney's a city of villages. Yes. We have different cultures around. Melbourne is cultured. Right. You're Melbourne, you're Melbanian. That's it. Wow. It's like a blanket culture.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

So you you and I love Melbourne. Melbourne's like a second home for me for our guys. We go to Melbourne and everyone is like, everyone is hospit no matter who it is. You're a painter, you're hospo. Wow. You're a titler, you're hospo because they live and breathe it. Right. Um, if Sydney had Melbourne weather, we would actually go to shit. Oh. Because Sydney siders do not leave their house in the rain. In Melbourne, it's always raining, but they're always going out. They're like New Yorkers. They put a coat on, they put their boots on, they're weatherproof, and they go out to eat. Wow. In Sydney, it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

They're done.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

If the weather's shit, like tonight, if it was raining and pissing down, it's aw, maybe tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Yeah, it's not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Not a thing. So, but in Melbourne, it's like Melbourne's like rain, hell, shine, man, we're a city. We're on, we're live, we got it, you know. And and that's what I respect about the Melbourne hustle. I call it the Melbourne Hustle. They're like the hustler state. They're like the little brother of Sydney that they don't have it all, but they fucking they push. They push, man. And they and they give you a run.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

And there's some great brands that come out of there. There's a great burger brand called Royal Stacks. Um, dominates the game down there, and there's like all these one percent of concepts that come up, they have like one or two stores, and they really, really, really like nail it. Nice. Where Sydney is, it's like we've got a lot of competition, but we've got a lot of people too. Right. So, like, we need that choice because we we physically need that many venues, right? Um, so yeah, that's Sydney, man.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Yeah, can't wait to check it out.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Oh man, ow, the Pizza Buddha. Yeah, Sydney, Australia.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Um, and again, welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you. And if any of the Pizza Buddha followers listen to this podcast, thank you so much. Thank you guys. Thank you. If you come to Sydney, you just DM me, say I'm buddies with our. And if you're not a buddy here with our say I follow owl and I need a list of recommendations. By the end of this, we're gonna write a list of our recommendations. Yeah. I reckon we'll share that out. I'll be good. Right. So we'll have a we'll create a sticker for the Pizza Buddha approved pizzeria. How about that? That's it. All right, let's go. All right.