Hospo Dojo Podcast
Hospo Dojo Podcast
How Peter Gunn is Revolutionizing Fine Dining with Ides in Melbourne
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In this episode of the Hospo Dojo Podcast, we sit down with Peter Gunn, the culinary mastermind behind Melbourne’s acclaimed restaurant, Ides. Known for his innovative approach to modern Australian cuisine, Peter shares his journey from working with some of the world’s top chefs to establishing a venue that reflects his unique vision. We discuss the challenges of running a fine-dining establishment, the creative process behind crafting unforgettable dishes, and the importance of authenticity in today’s fast-paced industry. Whether you’re in hospitality or simply a lover of great food, Peter’s story is one of passion, creativity, and resilience. Don’t miss this insightful conversation!
Where'd you start your career in cooking? Yeah, so uh a Chinese takeaway, JM's fast food. How did you come up with this idea to start you create a concept and take over a restaurant and pop up in there?
SPEAKER_00I've been at Attica for like four years. It's a like a hyper-focused restaurant, like Native Australian ingredients. And by this point, I was very confident in myself, but I didn't have the outlet to cook some of the ideas that I was having.
SPEAKER_02What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's struggling, struggling to put together those touch points in their business? For me, I put myself as in today's episode, we talk with Peter Gunn, the creative force behind IDE in Melbourne, which has redefined contemporary Australian dieting. Starting with pop-ups, Peter turns his vision into a thriving restaurant, blending innovation with classical techniques. Despite pandemic challenges, Peter's determined to reignite the model he perfected. Peter shares his inspiring journey, his modern approach to hospitality, and what it takes to run a successful venue. Stay tuned to hear his story and thoughts on the evolving industry. Welcome back. The lime chops, you swap them out? Yeah, we swap them out. What happened? They delivered it wrong. Wrong cut. Wrong cut. You never order lime chops here. Only for the barbecue at home.
SPEAKER_00Only for the barbecue. Actually, man, I I I'm I'm off lamb at home, eh? Really? I'm scarred from my youth as what happened?
SPEAKER_02Just too much lamb.
SPEAKER_00Overcooked lamb chops.
SPEAKER_02So lamb chops meaning you're from NZ? I'm from NZ, yeah. Whereabouts?
SPEAKER_00Wellington, New Zealand.
SPEAKER_02Nice. And um and you were telling me earlier where'd you start your career in cooking?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh a Chinese takeaway. JM's fast food, served uh fried chicken and uh yeah, Chinese takeaway. Three core um three choices into a uh takeaway box.
SPEAKER_02Three choices in one choices in one box ten bucks a meal.
SPEAKER_00About that. Fried rice, sweet sour pork, a lemon chickens. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What's the secret to a good fried rice?
SPEAKER_00Uh hot wok, I think. Um hot wok.
SPEAKER_02Is it true about the old rice?
SPEAKER_00Uh you want the rice to mo I like the rice to be dry, so not necessarily old, but I think cooked and cooled. So if it's steamed, comes out of the steamer and it's cooled. Um yeah, that's that's that's my hot take on fried rice. But yeah, I used to used to uh make fried rice for the uh uh for the staff. Not wasn't a staff meal per se, as we do now in the in the restaurants and the restaurants that I've worked in, but we cook for myself a little individual portions of the rice, yeah. And that's how you used to do it out. Hot wok, oil, like the the half a laad of oil, some onion, um frozen veg.
SPEAKER_02So you get your peas, carrots, and frozen veg though, sometimes it retains a lot of the nutrients right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's go go go, then eggs in, so the mixed egg mixture in there, whip that around, rice in, toss, toss, toss, toss.
SPEAKER_02In the yum.
SPEAKER_00Yep. MSG, salt, sugar, splash of soy, done. Done. Done. Pork prawn. Uh no, vegetarian. Vegetarian all the way. Well, see, I mean, there's there's limits to what you could cook for a lunch meal. For a lunch meal. But I think, yeah, it's funny because that was, yeah, one of the first things I would cook um in the first job I I worked at. And then years later, one of the most significant jobs that I had was the sushi for Attica with Ben Shuri. And one year we went to Copenhagen, and if you dig deep somewhere, there's there's this crazy um video of um what we call uh uh bike fried rice where I'm riding this pushy.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I've got this uh D-Rose singlet on on the back of it. We've stapled all these crybacks bags to the back, okay, and it's got the ingredients of fried rice, and and we've got this little burner at the back between Ben and myself, and Ben's got the wok and he's cooking his full circle moment. And then and then we've got um yeah, there's takeaway boxes and we drive it riding around and he's handing it off. Handing out fried rice. It was crazy, it was crazy, yeah. That was um In Copenhagen. In Copenhagen, yeah. We went uh there for I was Ben's assistant at one of the many talks that he did around the world um in about 2015.
SPEAKER_02And where was Attica?
SPEAKER_00Where? Yeah, uh Ripon Lee, Melbourne, the restaurant. Um, I think that's what you mean, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. And did you when you moved from Wellington, where did you go straight away?
SPEAKER_00Um restaurant called Ezard in the CPD. Um it's no longer there now. Um Teague Ezard was the chef owner of that. I think he had that for about 20 years and then he started Ginger Boy. Um but I was fortunate enough to when I planned to move to Australia and start looking for work. Um Teague's, you know, um or HR department was quite actively searching for for chefs and I was able to line up work with the signed contract before I landed in Melbourne. So I was in Melbourne for a week and then started started working. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So in while you were in NZ, did you work anywhere else besides the the famous JM takeaway?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the JM takeaway was uh was actually the the sort of uh I don't know the the the gateway you know to to actual to to working in restaurants and cooking. Um I guess I didn't do too well at school, sort of wasn't really for me, um in in in so many words, and I needed money, so I started working at the takeaway, and then I th it's not that I really like that did not make me love food. Um there oh I mean uh by this point I was like 16 years old, I fucking ate all my life, you know. Like it didn't gorge, it didn't have anything great or special, but there was all like there was always food was around. My family were like put on the spreads of comfort, I've got some moldy heritage, and there was like hangies and boil-ups and food all the time whenever there was gatherings, but I don't think I really appreciated it. And and even in that um my first job, I didn't really appreciate it, you know, it was just just getting by. But then I started to things started to click right and I needed to sort of work, you know, I needed to apply myself somewhere. Um and then across from where the takeaway was, some Courtney Place in Wellington, um, there was a like there was takeaways on one side, so there's JM's fast food, another great um Chinese takeaway, which is uh Casey Cafe and some other, you know, you can think kebab shops and and whatnot. And then on the other side was all the um shiny restaurants, right? You know, so you didn't have to go too far. Didn't have to go too far, man. And I and I did it like I I ended up uh like one thing led to another.
SPEAKER_02I and the references would have been easy, easy good, easy good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, we spoke across the road, yeah. Um but you know, I I I did go to end up working out that I have to go to um like cooking school and and in order to if we were to show that I wanted to take things seriously, which is interesting. Like looking back on that now, like fuck, I've never had to display my qualifications of what I learned through through going to um culinary school ever, um, which is disappointing, you know, because like when you come when you don't do too well at school and you've got no certificates or edit the show for you finally get one and no cow wants to see it, you're like I think mainly it was like uh it's probably like oh this guy actually wants to, you know, I find something with education as a form of self-discipline to yourself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like every time that I've studied, uh I've done my bachelor's, I've done like my accreditation as a food service consultant, and then I've also I'm doing my MBA right now. And what I find is when I'm studying, it's always about you know me putting myself first and saying, okay, I'm disciplined enough to go through this course. So I think from an employer's perspective, they're like, if this kid's 16 and he's pulling in, is like, well, are you going to TAFE? Because if you're not going to TAFE, I'll give someone else who's taking the opportunity to go to TAFE. And then if you do that, then it's like you're showing a sense of commitment to them. Maybe that's how they would have seen it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Look, I hope.
SPEAKER_02But it is frustrating when no one wants to see a degree. I finish a double degree and everyone's like, oh, who cares? Yeah, what is it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, so yeah, I I end up going going through all those steps and then working at my first job, which is wasn't at the place across the road, but my ambition was to get to this this restaurant. It was called Hummingbird. There's small plates, all this stuff that I never like I man, I hadn't even been into a proper restaurant by this by 16, 17. You know, I remember going there with a a group of people that I worked with in the um like just after the takeaway, went there and then when the bill came, I didn't even know how to decide like pay a restaurant bill or how how it works out, you know. It was it was crazy. Um yeah, but then yeah, I did eventually end up working. My big step up was to go from the Chinese takeaway to the to the small tuppas restaurant across the road. Across the road, that's a big step. It was a big step.
SPEAKER_02And then how many years were you did you do your apprenticeship all in NZ?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um I did not do an apprenticeship. I did I uh went through a course uh city and guilds, which are 12 months, uh um half of that practical and half of that theory. Wow, yeah, and then that was it. Sounds like a fast track. It was fast. Well, you know, it was tough. Yeah, like it was full-time. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um so instead of doing it over the three years or four years, you would literally do it in the 12 months.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, look, it was it was kind of like you you go that it's like you treat like going to school, it's like nine to nine to five, five days a week, start your morning in the classroom, go into the kitchen. Um once a week we we held a um friends and friends and family like restaurant. So there was there was students studying wine, front of house service, there was the there was the management um guys that all sort of come together to to make a restaurant.
SPEAKER_02And did you find working in that sort of you know, there's not many there's not many schools that do that now, I don't find like the nine to five plus no, no. I I mean Did did you find that assist you like did it set you a bit of structure?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, 100%, 100%. Through that, like it was I was then able to uh I and I guess I tie it into what what happens current day, but I was then able to work out what days I could work because I knew what days school were, um like nine to five, and then there was uh well it was nine to five, and let's just say on a Thursday it was something like twelve to nine, meaning I couldn't work Thursday nights, but then every other I knew I had weekends free, and the nights free and the nights free, and this is where I started kitchen hand working as a kitchen hand. Um whereas like we've had had um I I've had apprentices here that have to go to TAFE once a week, or then it becomes once every other week, and then the classing schedule changes, and that for my business, the experience that I've had with we don't have any apprentices um with us now, but that severely does impact staffing sometimes. Um so much so we navigate we've navigated um with the apprentice and their desire as well. Because I mean when they're not go when they're not working, they're also losing money because they're not getting off. No, we need to cut that. That's okay. That's cut that. Um but when they're not they want to be working rather than go to TAFE. So then we have um we work out that the assessor comes to us, comes to us rather than them going to the TAFE and getting signed off their apprenticeship that way.
SPEAKER_02Um would you what's what's one piece of advice you'd give to like a modern day apprentice, like an apprentice in the industry?
SPEAKER_00Stick to it. Stick to it. The last two apprentices I had, um, they've given up. Um it and and it's not because of it's only because of the fact is that they they thought they wanted to do it. You know, the last apprentice we had was uh uh a 30 year old guy looking around a change of career and he was he was working at a um some hedge fund. Um I don't know too much about the his history or or that business, but he came, he dined, and he he's always always had a passion for food. And then with a for whatever decision that he made or choices that he he he decided he wanted to live out that passion. So he went and applied for an apprenticeship and he started somewhere else. He didn't start with us, then he came with us, came to us and he was with us for like six months before it's like, oh yeah, it's all too hard, I'm not getting paid enough, I'm not doing this and not do like so. My yeah, I I can't sh stress the point enough that you commit to an apprenticeship, stick with it, you know, stick with it. I guess the but even if you don't it's a sacrifice, right? It is a sacrifice, but it's this and well, I guess the other the other piece of advice is do your research properly, look at what it is gonna entail. Like don't just go in blindly and be like, oh yeah, I can do this, and then realize actually I can't do it.
SPEAKER_02Like if all the information is laid out to there for you know your pay rates, you know what you can do, you know how many hours you can work. Like our government pretty much spits everything out for you in Australia on what an apprenticeship looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02Um and that's that's really critical that you said stick to it. And I think that goes for anything, is is you know, if you feel like something's too hard, if you run away from it now, you're never gonna ever face the music later down the path, right?
SPEAKER_00I think for the last two that I've had um that I know for a fact did not finish their apprenticeships. Um both of them never started with us. We were like second, second year sort of they're in their second. Oh, one was in their first year, but he had tried he started somewhere else. As an older guy, I understand that that's a bit like oh well, this is not working for me, I'm not gonna continue this path. Which I I also stand by that as well. But for the younger guy, like there's a few years a few years of commitment for something that he at one point he really didn't want to do. And I think with it's a little bit different to just being like you're a skilled individual. You go and work in a joint and you work out that it's not it's not the right place for you to be. So you move on quickly. I I would encourage that. You don't necessarily have to commit to something that you can see that doesn't work for you.
SPEAKER_02But when you've got But it is it is a common thing that people do drop out in their apprenticeship very early on. Do you think it's a lack of maturity or do you think it's a lack of understanding?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's a lack of understanding because what I wanted to say then was that you get so much support. You're getting support from the TAFE, you're getting support from the gulp, you're getting support from your employee, you're getting nine times out of ten, you're getting support from your family because they all know the graph that's required. You know, and I'm talking about someone that's young, you know, like maybe late teens, yeah. Not someone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in his mature age, like g getting towards the 30s plus.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that you know, doing the research, understanding what's ahead of you, and really taking that step.
SPEAKER_02And I like I sort of like how you transitioned into um culinary, was that you took on a a part-time job sort of after school, um after like your normal public school, government school, whatever it is, and then you were working at this Chinese takeaway, just cooking. Yeah, you were just you were actually just cooking. Yeah, it wasn't like you were trying to chase this fine dining dream or whatever it was, you didn't even know what fine diners were. You know, you sort of navigated yourself in the in that. So from you working through that 12 months and and doing that hard slog, working at some great restaurants in NZ, then you moved over to Melbourne, worked for Ezard Ezart. How long were you there for? 12 months, and then you moved on again?
SPEAKER_00I moved to um the Western District districts out to Dunkald Um and worked with um Dan Hunter at the Royal Mail Hotel.
SPEAKER_02And between, you know, how many places did you work before you started your own journey? Um three. Three places there, and three places and how important was moving around for you? Yeah, you were utilizing your time as efficiently as possible, and you knew you had like a personal agenda when you walked in here. This is what I'm looking for, this is what I'm trying to achieve. And then you got to that certain from this is what I'm understanding, you got to that certain point and was like you're trying to push the boundaries a bit more, there's nothing really more here. Okay, what more do I need to go on for? Yep, and then did a bit of research, maybe not so much that you thought you should have, and then you went on and took on that next role. Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well that that's what I mean. Like the best restaurant in my eyes that I ever seen was the one directly across the road from the takeaway, yeah. And so that the goal, the ambition was to work there, and so eventually got there, and then through there, there was um a couple of there was a restaurant, Martin Bosley's Yacht Club restaurant, which was on um on the on the um the wharf there down at um in Wellington. It was not far. And we used to get all the glossy magazines and come through, and I learned about that through there. I was like, fuck, this is amazing. And that's when there was all these swipes and shit on the plate, and it was like really like fine dining, fine dining. I was like, fuck, that's where I want to go. And then I got there next. And then, yeah, that was turbulent times at that restaurant. I think it was like they had been in for years and go through like like I saw that the fine dining was tough, you know. There was days in that restaurant when I was um, you know, 17, 18 where there was no customers for lunch. Yeah, and and so you know, it's like fuck, this is tough. There's a risk involved in this, and I think like learning that sort of stuff is like, yeah, this is I like this this this part of this challenge is like you've got something that not everybody like can offer can offer, or not every one, not everybody can offer, not everybody can afford, and two, not everybody wants, you know, not people it's like hyper niche, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then you were like, from what I understand from the culinary world here in Australia, you were a pivotal person in Melbourne that really started up the pop-up culture. Yeah. That's from my um understanding. Yep. And how did you come up with this idea to start, you know, you create a concept and take over a restaurant and pop up in there?
SPEAKER_00Um I think it had started to happen around the world. I started to notice. Like there was a few in LA and London, like that you start to see a collective of chefs coming together to but like when social media wasn't around that often, how'd you how'd you find that out? Uh I I've I think it was on the cusp of social media starting, which is why they were like so like present.
SPEAKER_02It wasn't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're getting started. Fucked, I didn't know how to use it. Like, but I mean I I should have seen that like some people did. Um but yeah, the I I guess the idea was to so by this point I'd been at Attica for like four years, and Attica again, it's a like a hyper-focused restaurant like uh native Native Australian ingredients. There's inspiration from here and there, but it it it always reflects back to the history of Australia and and and native Australian cooking. And and by this point, I was very confident in myself, but I didn't have the outlet to to cook some of the ideas that I was have having. And with what I was contributing to Adakare, my role at that time, um that I just had heaps of ideas, and so and and I and none of them not not all of them could go go somewhere. So with with uh a buddy of mine, yeah, we talked about um just doing this pop-up and um we took over this cafe and uh it wasn't fuck, it was a cafe, it was a bar, it was a fucking name. It was all in one it was it was all in one. So it was this hos hodgepodge of a restaurant that I was um sitting there with my wife and I thought maybe I should just ask these guys if we can take over this place on a Monday as well. we which we did um yeah so lindsay fush one of my best mates you'll drive down from um Hamilton so country victoria where i met where we met working at the Royal Mail and I was um obviously at Attica we're sort of this is the this is peak stage air point where everyone was like starging in restaurants which tends not to happen that much anymore uh here in Australia anyway um so Fush would drive down uh with stagiers from the Royal Mail and I can't bring the stagiers from Antica and then we'd just have a whole crew crew in the thing and I Fush and I would stage airs mean they're not getting paid no they're on a they're on they're doing work experience.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah um and then so these guys always just looking for something something to do anyway as well and so we just get together and Fush and I would write a menu and then we'll just piece it together like it would all come together on the day. And um yeah then one thing just sort of led to another. And how many of these pop-ups did you end up doing? So we did them once a month um from 2012. Till? Till we opened here 2016. So four years once a month yep it was hectic.
SPEAKER_02It was hectic and you just kept them going around different places?
SPEAKER_00No we um so so so I guess partly what I touched on before is I committed to the the place like I negotiated with with um the bar the bar that we took over the time was like I want to do this once a month for X amount of time. We ended up uh sort of outgrowing that but we did 12 months at um at the first first first place yeah um and e each month there was like which shared shared the shared the the coin that we made with the guys everybody involved and then we just invested back into the business which I've fucking still been doing to this day that that sort of um pay the staff reinvest into the business you know um but yeah once once a month man we did that there and then we we outgrew the demand like there was about a 30 seater um so the demand um was became higher and then we went to a place in east Melbourne um and then yeah that they they had just started their business as well and we were able to grow with their starting business meaning they they were like a 35 seater and then after a couple of years they were like a 65 seater and we were able to grow the demand that we had with them so yeah it was really good it was it was really good and that and that's you like adding value to that business they're adding value to you yeah if if there's a chef on the peripherals that's watching watching this right now what's one piece of advice you'd give them to start a pop-up just like you did um yeah it's probably just just do it and commit and work out like I mean with the help of of of yourself like you the spreadsheets and that the information that's available you need that sort of stuff because there's lots of hidden costs in everything and uh when you're negotiating with someone as simple as it may be you could offer someone like a hundred bucks to take over their place for a day for for a night it's always it's always worthwhile to understand to take some estimations and what a day's rent might look like what what the um what the electricity's cost so they use gas how how much is that working with how much of their cleaning chemicals chemicals that are you're going to use of this because what what I didn't want to do is I don't want to fucking show up with rubbish bags and bins and like do all this stuff. I wanted to utilize what was not being utilized in the clothes business um that day yeah and so um I put together uh what I thought was a reasonable like cost sheet cost sheet.
SPEAKER_02And how'd you come up with that? Was that over the years of experience of you working in kitchens?
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah all the things you need you know you need running water you need gas you need you need to dispose of waste and and and so on and so forth. And then think of something that they can benefit from i we we started without we had a great son that was part of our initial crew but we made sure that we would use their booze and that they would take the profit from their from the booze. So we're selling their product for them to to encourage to encourage the the consumer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah or to encourage the business to to allow us to do it.
SPEAKER_00So you know you've got to You got a give and take a give and take um so that yeah my advice is don't just think you're a fucking sit cun and you can you get it for nothing you know be be respectful yeah you you know Morgan the one that started Bell's chicken?
SPEAKER_02Yep. He had a he uh his deals with all his pop-ups was because he did things internationally not just nationally he'd fly to Copenhagen he'd fly to Germany he'd fly to um he'd fly to France the US and this guy's doing pop-ups everywhere worldwide and guys are like man this guy must be banking it rolling in it getting paid to be flying everywhere but his pop-ups weren't for that he just needed his crew to be funded and the food to be taken the venue makes all the money food and bev just cover my cost doesn't want to make a cent did not make a cent and he says it with hand on heart and that's why he was so well respected by like an international community because he wasn't just trying to you know bloodsuck everybody yeah these pop-ups sort of added value to his brand and I find that you know market stalls or pop-ups in restaurants I always tell someone like that has a new product that they want to start with just say it's like a retail product I'd be like guys you can have this really really big idea and you might think it's the best thing in the world and your inner circle might think it's the greatest product of all time but how do you know it's actually going to sell so I would start in a market stall try it there and if the market responds then it responds.
SPEAKER_00Pepe Sayer they started in a small market and now they're in airlines just from like again a pop-up and you know transitioning from that 2012 to 2016 um how did you know that you know that's it I need to open a restaurant what was it um the wife yeah yeah uh we we were expecting our first child um and I was working so much as the full time hours at Attica and then all the um pop-ups extracurricular work that went into the the pop-ups and and and the events that then came off the back of the pop-ups and and um teaching myself because I mean still probably to this day I'm I'm I'm a chef not a like I am a business owner but my trade was was cooking. Yeah so I've had um right up until having my now business partners a lot of my learnings were all self-taught like all the research that I had to do to to study how am I do I have to pay GST or like you know all of that stuff took a lot it took a lot um so yeah I was uh you know there was times I working like 100 120 hour weeks and novella's just like you gotta make a choice either commit to the restaurant or commit to the pop-up or commit to turning the pop-up into something or get rid of it and just com stay commit to adequate.
SPEAKER_02So so you're comfortable to say that your wife was part of that puzzle of making the choice to open that that first venue. Yeah with that support.
SPEAKER_00Yeah or is to go out and get it to go out and make it happen because like as you touched on like it was low risk the pop-up was low risk like we were we were heavily invested but not not so invested that financially yeah yeah that we we weren't like if we stopped doing it just be like everything back to normal everything back to normal and during the time we were doing it people were people were popping up and then disappearing and you know they were like we we we had simple branding we had nothing we uh we just we we just relied on the the quality of the service that we were doing and the and that word of mouth vibe um which was working for us and I saw it all come and you see the flashy logos and you see the great photos and you see this and they're there for one minute and then they probably overcapitalized overcapitalized and then also overcommitted like you see well fuck it takes a lot to drum drum something up once a month. And so yeah but the constant graph into the of that was just like something you had to give.
SPEAKER_02And this was the first location the one that we're sitting in right now this is it yeah no this is this is next door.
SPEAKER_00This is next door so this is actually the second location the first location is next door but we expanded two years ago yeah into here so open there 2016. And that's March. Both IDs Ides restaurant IDs bar this is the this is the private dining room yeah it's it's uh we started the bar march with the idea that we would oh right that we would offer a s a like a more casual offering yep um and sort of have a have a different outlet for that um worked for the first few months and then the consumer just wanted IDs IDS IDES IDES IDES IDES yeah so we we we you know you listened to the listen to listen to it and then we just sort of well it it was it wasn't a hard transition man it was just a matter of peeling off the sticker the decal and then it's like there's no changes to it um and the word IDs where'd that come from so it was right back to the pop-ups uh di IDE in Latin means a day falling roughly in the middle of each month so which is why we we we had to live up to the IDES like like the once a month pop-up wow and the most significant IDES is the IDES of March when like the the common people rose up to assassinate Caesar um which is where the name March came from for the bar and March it's it look it a lot of what I do is it's all you'd like to have a story. Yeah but it's all natural evolution as well like you know we put the uh this private dining room in and um we we didn't have a name for a while this is called we call this now the courier room which is like a meeting place for the people and also the place where like Caesar was assassinated you know like like he was so you know it it all sort of naturally tie organically ties into into one another. If I was to sit down if I was to go back to you know even when Novella said it's Attica or I I never would have been able to plot this out on paper. Like no chance no chance it's just sort of one thing it's led into another into another natural provision into another and so the March sort of got us through COVID so we were working on the idea of putting the march bar in and then the the branding of march the A in the letter um were legs so it was like march to the bar and then it just so happened um we during COVID we started serving food to people like preparing dishes to finish at home and we pushed that out under the brand march it seemed like quite fitting for for a takeaway um so to speak um so yeah and again but that was all just like it wasn't plan but it landed right in our lap and it was um you know we had to we had to use it.
SPEAKER_02And it just happened if there was something that you could tell the young Peter Gunn before he moved to Australia right now.
SPEAKER_00What's one thing you'd tell him um I think be patient slow it down a touch um yeah I think I've you know I I turned 39 next week um so I was I think I was 27 when I 26 when I landed here I was scared like I I hadn't moved from New Zealand but I was still scared like had like a couple of hundred bucks in my my in my pocket and a and a and a bag and I just like a bag full of clothes and a couple of books and just had to go you know and um I sort of went through a lot of all the stereotypical chef stuff like drinking after work and partying and then like showing up the next day and just go go go go go and just like not taking care of myself and um yeah becoming quite like aggressive in in what I wanted to achieve or wanted to do and to go back to say okay I want to go there I want to work there this is what I want to do is like fuck this is I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do I'm gonna do it like so much so even before I after Ezard and ended and working at the Royal Mail I applied at Attica and I didn't get the job and that cut and I went back again you know to like and prove yourself to prove myself yeah man I was at the Royal Mail and I even like it was going from the big going from Melbourne City out to country Victoria was like whoa massive massive change of pace and everything and I think that's that's really when I started to like find myself you know that's where I met one of my best mates that's where I met Novella my wife ex-wife by the way I should say so been through all of it um yeah that's when I really started to slow down and and and take take stock on things um but that was you know after 18 months of be of of landing here and being here so yeah my advice to myself would be just to slow down a touch slow down a touch and think things through a little bit a little bit more and if there was you know um you've got business partners now and currently how important is having you know that business partner involved in your business? Yeah for me very important. So I got two partners um with the help of them I never would have been able to like start they were able to really help me negotiate and navigate getting into the lease understanding what you know um like liquor licensing and all the like the relationships they had already with lawyers and and just HR departments and and event planners and so forth was yeah um it's it was invaluable. It was like I said going back it's like always searching for that mentor like without having without having them to lean on and to learn from yeah I don't I don't I don't think we we we possibly wouldn't be sitting here. So they're very important very very important. There's not a you know let's probably speak to one of one of our partners is um he's he's not too heavily involved only when there's important decisions to be made. The other one I speak to every other day about the various operations yeah various bits and pieces and just because he's involved they're both involved in other hospitality venues as well it's always nice to you know you can be quite you can be quite self-absorbed in your own business and and what's happening in just closed between four walls.
SPEAKER_02You feel like you don't know what the hell is going on outside you don't know that you know that what the pain that you're going through someone else is going through. Someone else is going through that. And that's the actual the entire point of this podcast is you're lucky you have two individuals that are exposed to other places and and and and other businesses. So you can bounce ideas off them.
SPEAKER_00There are a lot of people out there right now who own an operator have no one they can talk to potentially gone through the full cycle like you have but have no one else to lean on and they they don't know any better and they don't know what to do and they're the reason sometimes their businesses lead to failing they can't bounce off their staff yeah so you know if you if someone like that ever came on your peripheral someone who's you know running a business there by themselves they're in their own mind what's one way you know they they could sort of escape that um I've for personally for me it's always to ensure that you've got a a friendship group one or two that are in similar situations to lean on and it's it's sometimes it's you've got to swallow a lot of pride to let people know that you're you're struggling with this or this is not going as well as you expect it. I've been in like there are times I've been like in absolute lows when like I haven't I know there's topics that I can't discuss with the staff like the staff immediately like like present in in situations where I've been feeling tough but I I have been fortunate enough to maintain those the relationships with chefs that I grew up I like started working with in Melbourne that are owner operators so I would encourage this encourage them to seek out um friends or they don't have to be friends people you admire that are in similar situations so that you and and build up some confidence to be able to talk through that with them. Because it's hard like you know your partner at home is not really if they're if they're not involved in the business they're not really familiar and you think you can go back and like let it out on like share with them and which is great to offload uh unload but you're not fixing anything you're not fixing anything because not a lot of the time you're not getting the right information back. Like I know with my mum bless her she's great like a sweet through about public she's a nurtry yeah yeah just nurture that's great sometimes you need that but the there's not the sometimes you need that half truth. Yeah and that because I'm always scared like I've always been scared to lose the my creativity or lose that sort of the the hard angle that makes IDS what what it is that we've built it to be you know and you can think there's times where we've had a a month of high food cost and but we've got some sick dishes on there and you're like well we've got to adapt this but we're not just gonna turn turn a dish that we've sort of refined to to be a uniquely IDs dish and just make it look like or or or serve it or cook it or change the produce just so it fits within the in the that perfect box.
SPEAKER_02That perfect box um which then takes away what I what I've is so you know we've we've then got to look to other angles mainly meaning we look at something earlier in the menu and we adapt something like we can see oh maybe something's on the way out like season seasonal wise or or we've been cooking it for long enough we make sure that when we're bringing something else in to replace that that it's it's becoming a support barrier for what we've got being the main event is what I'm I hope that's making that no yeah no definitely understand like and and and I know that you have this ethos that I want to tap on and I I remember if I quote you if quote quote tell me if I'm wrong but your most important dishes is something that you start on and something that you finish on. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02So for you the pastry section is very very very important. Can you explain a little bit you know why that ethos for you is so strong? Because it's something that people tend to neglect.
SPEAKER_00Personally I think it's people's attention span you know current day um it's it's you know if we serve uh like six six courses a lot of the times those middle courses they just people just don't remember them but just simply like like if you think back to oh oh yeah we had this and this but when you start off with a bang and you finish with a bang I think the take the takeaways the starting and the takeaways they for for whatever maybe it's just my memory but they seem to stand out more. You seem to be able to recall them better if you finish on an amazing dessert you know if you you start on something um yeah really special but in saying that you we make sure that we carry that energy throughout the throughout the menu entire menu yeah so we don't uh we don't offer it like your traditional extensive 12 course um menus like we've got a menu called the 12 but it's 12 dishes served only over four five courses at the moment you know and and that's meaning you'll sit down you'll get a like a couple of plates with a with a side um and the the Melbourne style of eating is very share like very very um handsy and we sort of lean into a bit of that but instead of this plates being shared you get your individual portion of everything. And again that's that keeps you engaged keeps you thinking all our main courses forever have always been um a plated piece of protein and source on the plate with um a number of condiments like served um like we haven't been the first people to do that of course but it's just it in this This realm of fine dining where you're like you've got your fish and your sauce, and then you've got your meat and your sauce, and then like it's it can become quite monotonous and quite repetitive.
SPEAKER_02Um, and that's that is where I I think people sort of turn off a little bit and forget forget what what that age are in the middle, and you know you ID is a fine diner, and I find that you know what fine dining, what people perceive as fine dining globally has very mixed ideation, like I perception, sorry. Like you perceive fine dining as you know a massive plate with like a really, really small P in the middle. Yep, right. Um if you talk to the lay person of fine dining, they're like, oh, I'm paying a lot of money for bugger all food, right? Um where fine dining in in the world is how can I bring nature to the plate or whatever my my vision is forward, right? Now I find that in Australia, especially compared to other places of the world, you have you know, we have this element of I'd say like more of a casual approach to fine dining. Yeah, and like even our dress code is quite different, um, and even the the level of service is still there, but it again it does come across that little bit more casual, then it's not as overwhelming. And you've travelled the world, you've you've been to Copenhagen, you've been to other places of the world. What's your take on Australia's fine dining scene?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we uh I I only really want to speak specifically specifically to what we offer here, and it's just really informal. So we take away the um I like to think the stiffness of it. So how that sort of um relates is the I guess the linen, the the the white tablecloth sort of thing that everybody perceives as fine dining. Still, maybe I don't know. I feel like that should have changed by now, but rather than the rather than the linen tablecloths, we haven't heavily invested in a beautiful table. Um like you like the one we're sitting at here now, like solid brass, um worn-up, you know. These have beautiful touch points, you know, they're they're they're they're unique, um, not in the world, but they're unique to other like other venues. Other venues. Um so that in a sense just drops the formality immediately, you know. You if you if you come to like there's you can see like in just I don't know if the camera can see imperfections but it's it's a story that's been here. Someone had a fucking that could have been a shot of tequila, that could have been a glass of red wine, you know? Yeah, this could have been uh a Mai Thai. Like there's just a story that's sort of built up on the table that that sort of contributes to the energy of the room that the the place has got sold. Um which again, going back to the white linen tablecloths after every service, like don't get me wrong, this gets wiped down. This is just a natural patina, this is what happens to this this product, you know, this is what happens to brass. But at the end of every night, if if if if we if this was covered by a white tablecloth, it'd strip down, put another fresh one on. And some people really do like that, but with that, like, you know, and I guess the engagement with the staff at the table would be like say if if I was to be served here, maybe the waiter or the waitress, they've got they remember what happened here. Yeah. You know, that the the the map sort of sort of laid out on the table, and so like it just brings it brings a sense of like, you know, just a little bit of charming.
SPEAKER_02A bit of nostalgia, a bit of theatre.
SPEAKER_00A bit of theatre, and and and that's that's that's really what we focus on is the really informal nature of of delivering something special.
SPEAKER_02You said you said a word that I that I love and it's something that I want to just focus on a little bit. And you said touch points. A lot of people don't tend to miss out on consumer touch points and how important that is in the the experience journey. Because when they come into a venue, um it is a journey, and it's a journey through experience. And when people go out to eat, they're either escaping their norms of reality, or they're celebrating something.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02That that's what I believe. You know, if I want to go out to eat, I want to go out because I want to escape my norm, I want to get out of my house, I want to, I want to leave the environment that I'm in. I want to go get transformed into someone else's space, I want to experience something different. Or if I'm celebrating something, I want to, you know, I want to really enjoy, I want to indulge, I want to have that that level of experience, sure. And then there's there's food for convenience. I can't be fucked cooking today, whatever the case may be. But along that journey, when you enter a space, there's different touch points that go along the way. And I can see here just by the way that you're communicating, you have a deep understanding of these touch points, and you have, you know, there's there your venue is very well thought out, even to the way of your sequence of service, you showcase those touch points through and through. What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's struggling struggling to put together those touch points in their business?
SPEAKER_00Uh for me, I put myself as the diner. So I I would I always promote the idea that you've got to be comfortable in your own business. You've got to you I'm basically I'm creating these touch points, I'm creating the experience for the experience that I want. This is how I can refine it, this is how I can shape it, this is how I can take it in all these directions. Meaning I don't want to be greeted with the um hello sir, um what's your name, what's your phone number, what's your address, why are you here, how is just the two of you, would you like this, that, and the other? I I like to I like my welcoming into a venue to be relaxed. I like the edge to be taken off. You're coming off like where we are on Smith Street, you come off this quite eclectic street into this like um slow but energetic environment. And I with that, like if if I'm to maintain that, you can't have a really stiff welcoming, you know. So the way that the way that I look at these and the way that I really like to encourage my staff to look at the touch points, and what I would encourage other people to um do is believe in it in the way that you want it or make it shape it the way that you want it to feel, not what other people's expectation of what it should be. Um yeah, like if if if you believe that your restaurant should have a fucking giant screen that welcomes you when you walk in the door and the waiter has to look down for this amount of time before you welcome and then click four times. If you believe that, do that. I don't believe in that. I think that's completely um I don't know what it's a little bit disconnected, it's very disconnected, you know. Whereas um the way our the way it starts here is you come in off the street and you're welcome to sit at the bar. You know, what you you you're encouraged to sit at the bar, but basically you've got to sit at the fucking bar. But like it's it's informal and it's like come here, sit here.
SPEAKER_02And to put it you never and greet their name, so you just come in and take a seat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, have a seat here. Once they're seated, we serve them a welcome um beverage, uh, non-alcoholic tea on us as a way to get them, you know. You think of a tea, you go to a you go to a fucking day spa, you get given a tea to relax, you know. So we we get them settled then. Once they're settled, probably once you're there, then we come and say, what was the name of your reservation? You know, and then we've got a we've got a leather, again, a beautiful leather-bound reservations book that we can see the name. Yes. Thanks. Give them the wine list, let them ease into it.
SPEAKER_02Because that's exactly what happened to me when I went to Ivan's restaurant in Singapore. Yep. I was going to a hawker market on New Year's Eve day, walking around in my shorts and t-shirt, and his restaurant's called Nori. Yeah, I've been, it's great. Yeah. I walked in, so if you remember it, there's a lounge at the front. Yeah. I walked in, this beautiful lady greeted me and and my wife, and I thought, I didn't even know what Nori was. It slipped, I knew about it, but I'm walking, so it just slipped my mind. And I looked, I had a quick look, and it had like this long table. I read Nori. For some reason, I put the words in a wrong way. I thought it was Japanese, so I thought maybe it's like a little sashimi bar. I might be able to get a bit of sushi, it might be like a nice little amakaze experience. I said, Great, we'll go in, you know? And it was really casual, like really warm and casual. And Jess goes, nah, Paul, I think this is like really fine diamond. And I said, No, it's it's it looks it looks comfortable. I walk in, the lady greets me with a tea, yeah, and it was like this beautiful, like green tea, and I was like, So I had this tea and I was relaxed. I said, mate, I'm not going anywhere. Whatever it is, we're committed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Doesn't even ask my name, she just gave me a tea. And I feel like he won me over at that point. Yeah. And I feel like that same way with with what you're doing here is is that, and and this is a piece of advice I'd give to anyone that that wants to add that element within their venue. No matter if it's casual or it's or it's or it's you know super refined, it's reduce that barrier of entry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Especially in this market, everyone everyone is over being sold to. I don't want to feel ripped off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I want to feel like, you know, uh I'm supporting the business the right way, I want to feel like they have the best intention at heart, like anything in life. Who you support, what you want to achieve. And I feel like if you can make them immersed into your world and comfortable in, and make them feel comfortable in a foreign space, the rest is history. They're gonna enjoy everything.
SPEAKER_00And and sometimes it's that's the hardest thing to do, is just to get people just to relax. And we put like like it's we put a lot of time into working out how we can how we can get them relaxed, you know, like a lot of time. We've done everything like yep, come straight to the table, we get watered and suited and booted as soon as they get in, and it's it's it just doesn't work for it doesn't work for us and our like style, yeah.
SPEAKER_02On the end of this podcast, Pete, if there was if there was something that you could, you know pass on to you know your team or someone that you've you've worked with, or whoever the case may be, just like a a lasting note for for culinary for for culinary business because you want you're a you're you said it before, you're a chef. You're not a you you're a business owner, but you're a chef. But you you and you're always fearful of that, of losing that creativity. And there are a lot of people in that same position, and this is what I'm trying to get to, is guys that are going out on their way, that are trying to learn the business side of things, that are trying to learn the numbers, you know, because I have a thing that numbers don't lie. That's my biggest thing. And everyone can talk shit to you, tell you that this is the best dish, that's everything. No, no, no. But you know, if you count how many times that this plate's come back to the kitchen, not eaten, that's a number. That's one, two, three, four, numbers don't lie. If there's one piece of advice you would give to, you know, someone wanting to to get out, kickstart their journey, open their own business, guns blazing, um, or a staff member that wants to, you know, that that worked for you, that that wants to do that, what's something that you would tell them?
SPEAKER_00Know how much things cost, like know how much you're worth, know how much the staff, staff needs to be paid what they're entitled to, know what rent is, know what power costs, know what gas costs, know what fucking tea light candles costs, know what toilet paper costs. All of these things that stack up, and to your point, the numbers do not lie. And they can get away, it can get away from you so quickly, so quickly. Know what the flowers cost. You know, we pay a thousand bucks a month in flowers. Um and that's like that's got to be calculated into the cost somewhere, that's gotta be paid for. You don't just want to be like, oh yeah, my food costs are fucking 20%, I'm doing fucking great guns, but then you're with expenses left like left, right, and center. Um it's it's everything like the the costing of the jus, know what the jus costs, know what the know what the spoonful of jus that goes on the plate costs. You know, it's it's it takes a while to learn that stuff, but with you know, again, with the help of yourself and the programs that that that are uh available and and the information that is out there, this stuff is like it's invaluable. Like know what branding costs, know what the graphic designer is actually doing when they just throw you a 5k um quote, you know. What does that involve? Is there a business card in that? If the business card is in there, is uh do you get print uh do you get do you get handed printed cards or is it just the design, you know? Know what things cost is is is is is the pain that I fucking it's not pain, it's it's just it's painful to see what people what things cost and it's painful to learn how people charge things and what sometimes what what hitting cost that always slid in there, whether it's a fuel levy, whether it's a fucking box charge, if it's you know, uh it goes right down to understanding what a minimum order costs, so you're not paying $15 for a freight, you know. Um it's just it's just ask the question. Ask the question. Understand what you're paying for. Everybody's everybody's in business, you know, and they're everybody's putting these like costs in place for a reason, just like you're putting your costume for the cocktail or the or the or the you're there to make money, they're there to make money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. At the end of the day, you know, you're not doing dealing with charitable organizations. No, no, so it's not like whatever you're paying is going towards a charity, yours is going towards a business, so understand what you're paying for, and there's going to be a transaction of value there, right? Um, and what does that value mean to you? What's your perceived value of what you're about to receive? Yeah, and what's the perceived value that they're that what's the value that they're giving you? And I guess that's where you can compare. And I tell people like, you know, it's not always about going and getting 10 quotes. That's not that's not always the answer. Because if you if you get 10 quotes, you could be getting 10 of the same quote for the wrong thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you just confuse the shit out of yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's if you're if you're going down the line to to engage in a product or service, like you said, Pete, understand what you need, understand what you want. And if you don't know what that is, you might be able to pay someone to scope something for you. You might be able to say, okay, this is what I think I need, but is this actually right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's that's exactly right. And because everybody wants to, you do need this. Yeah. You do need this. It's a like my thing is on a on a wine glass. Do you need your branding on a wine glass? You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's oh it's only 50 cents or it's only it's only extra 25 cents or something like that. But then you've got to get 250 wine glasses. Yeah. So, you know, that price automatically of the wine glasses. And then when a dozen breaks. And then it doesn't break, then you've got to get another minimum run because you you've got to have your branding on it. Like it's you know, just knowing what everything costs is. Like, we we um in the summer we with my kids we do a lemonade stand at the front. Like, I've costed the fucking lemonade. We sell for $3.50. Yeah. Um, and it's just just to show them the the value of the value of uh money and what you're selling for as well. And like you show owner, he wants to sell the thing for $4.50. Yeah, I want to sell for that too, but it's it's three bucks, man. You gotta sell it for three bucks, but you've got to know what you're doing here, you know. And it's it's funny, man, because even like in all our in all our um in all our costing spreadsheets, right from even what might be perceived as the the free ice that comes out of your ice machine, like we've got a cost associated to that that goes into into our drinks, dishes. We've got uh like in our stocks and soups, the running water that comes out of our taps is costed to go to go into the into the recipe, you know? It's it's um it's all got to be um accounted for somewhere.
SPEAKER_02And that's how that's how an institution like yours is able to keep its doors open. Well yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, to sum it up, yeah, I'd I'd like to think so.
SPEAKER_02Well, besides the fact of having great service, great food, uh customers walking through the door, the fact that you can run a success successful business with the right partners and having everything costed and accounted for, that's what I I truly believe uh is allowed you to keep your doors open.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well there's I just want to there's one thing that you that's really important is that what I've what I've you know like I think I've expressed is the importance of the hospitality basically at the end of the day of what we give to the guests and how much we invest in these all those the touch points and the experience and so forth. And the back end we're investing in the staff and the business by making sure all our all our costs are in order. But you never want to you never want that to bleed over to the customer, but you need they don't need to be aware of of everything everything, like the the costs associated with it. Because I mean it can really take away from the guest experience if you start harping on about how much it costs and you know what this is like that there's a lot of times like as you pointed out, people come to celebrate or get away. They don't want to know the the the the why there's a mishap of their food being late or why there's they don't we don't have this particular sometimes we overshare. We overshare, yeah. Um and so that's always that's one thing to keep in mind like keep your keep your numbers in order and keep them open to the people that that that need to hear it that need to hear it, um, but keep that information private.
SPEAKER_02Amazing, Pete. If there's one thing that you want to wrap this podcast up with, do you want to say anything?
SPEAKER_00Oh, just thank you for having me. Um it's been great to watch your journey. Um, like again, even I think our relationship was pretty organic. We met out on the streets.
SPEAKER_02Um seen you carrying a couple beers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, but no, it's it's impressive to watch, and I'm glad I I'm honored to be um part of the Pete.
SPEAKER_02You've just been you've been an uh instrumental figure in the hospitality scene in Australia. You really have shown that you know fine dining is possible in in any setting, in a comfortable setting, in a setting that you perceive it as. And um it's it's it's great to see that you've been able to you know continue your ethos through no matter the challenging times that you've gone through personally to keep a business afloat. And I'm sure that you're you know inspiring a lot of other people, and I can't wait to share this episode with with everyone else out there.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, man. Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate it.