Hospo Dojo Podcast
Hospo Dojo Podcast
Beyond the Kitchen: Morgan McGlone on Pop-Ups, Fashion, and Fried Chicken
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In this episode, we sit down with Morgan McGlone, the founder of Belles Hot Chicken, a venue that has been redefining fried chicken in Australia since 2014. But Morgan’s story isn’t just about food—he’s staged internationally with top chefs, managed models in New York, and hosted over 87 pop-ups and collaborations across the globe. Now at Bar Copains, Morgan continues to blend creativity, business, and a passion for hospitality.
Join us as we explore Morgan’s journey, from shaping Australia’s casual dining scene to rediscovering his roots, and learn what it takes to stay ahead in an ever-evolving industry.
Please introduce yourself, Morgan.
SPEAKER_04I started in uh 1992 as an apprentice. Originally at a place called the Summit, you know, which was uh revolving restaurant back in '92. And then in uh '94 moved over to the Meribelle family.
SPEAKER_03And what were you doing in fashion?
SPEAKER_04Just a scout and new face model management. Because I'm a chef, I can multitask, I can do more than one thing.
SPEAKER_03It's not about anybody trying to exploit you. It's literally about you learning the master of the art from somebody else. So someone's devoting their time, their knowledge, everything that they have, and giving you that. And in return, you're giving them time of day. If you if you've seen yourself at the barrel of the camera and you could tell your younger self something, what would it be? Welcome back to the Hospital Dojo podcast. In this episode, I sit down with Morgan McLone, the mastermind behind Bill's Hot Chicken, which has been setting the standard for fried chicken in Australia since 2014. But Morgan's story goes far beyond the kitchen. He's worked alongside world-class chefs, managed models in New York, and orchestrated over 87 pop-ups around the globe. Now at the helm of Bar Copane's, a one-hat venue in Sydney, Morgan continues to redefine what it means to blend creativity, business, and hospitality.
SPEAKER_02Please introduce yourself, Morgan.
SPEAKER_04My name is Morgan McLone. I'm uh chef proprietor um of Barco Pan and uh soon to be Bessie's and Alma's and uh Surrey Hills.
SPEAKER_03Nice. And Bacopen, give us a little bit of a rundown on what Bacopin is.
SPEAKER_04Uh Bacopen is a like a French-inspired wine bar that was started by me and my one of my best mates, Nathan Sassy, um you know, ex-nomad. Um he did Mikado, he did also did uh Lee Street Wine Room in Adelaide. And we've always wanted to open a wine bar together. Um we brought he brought me in, we we found the space on Albion Street, and then we brought in uh one of my older managers, sort of beverage manager from Bells, once we all left Bells, and then he's become a small partner in our in our fold as well. So yeah, Christian, he's he heads up the beverage, keeps the keeps the customers lubricated and um the flavor profile one and Nathan uh Nathan is uh the driving force with uh what we do, he's uh a menace. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Morgan, tell us a little bit about um your tenor, your history and hospitality. You started Bill's Hot Chicken, which was uh I think revolutionized the game of fried chicken in Australia and really started that trend. You know, there was burgers that had started, like the Smash Burgers and stuff, and then you had your pasta bars coming up, and then you had Bill's.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03That was that was that's what I found in that 2014, 2015 sort of 20, that 20, yeah, 2014, 2015, where you know, traditional dining was starting to change in Australia, more smart casual dining was occurring, everyone started going out in t-shirts, uh sneakers, it was like this up market sort of sort of um sort of vibe, and I feel like you came in at this point where it's like bringing casual dining sort of with an elevated experience though, right? So tell us a bit about Bills and and however you started in the industry before.
SPEAKER_04I I started in uh 1992 as an apprentice uh originally at a place called the Summit, you know, which was uh revolving restaurant back in 92, and then in uh 94 moved over to the Meribelle family, and then continued the end of my apprenticeship with Luke Mangan at uh Hotel CBD in 1995, 1996 went overseas, came back, and then um 99 went to Salt, which was just up here in Darlinghurst, uh pretty close. Um was there for two and a half years, and then I went to America as a private chef just after the Olympics. Wow, which was pretty cool. Some cool. How long were you there for? I was with that family for about just over two years, and then I made a massive change. And somehow in New York, when I was living in New York, I um made a change to fashion. So I worked as a model booker, took care of uh Miranda Kerr, Catherine McNeil, uh a couple of big uh names in um first in uh New York and then I moved to Brazil for a few years.
SPEAKER_03And what were you doing in fashion?
SPEAKER_04Just a scout and new face model management. So I used to go scouting, like when I moved to Paris, I was working for a massive agency that could next model management. And uh I would go to countries and uh we would we would obviously scout models. So like uh from I mean, I mean not just I never I didn't get one of these, it wasn't a street scout, it was actually set up professionally with agencies, and then I would choose new faces, bring them to Paris, we'd groom them for the Paris agent for the Paris market, and then build their book, and then then they'd go back to their mother agency and we'd keep them on the books and from time to time they'd come in for bookings.
SPEAKER_02And how'd you get into fashion?
SPEAKER_04I was catering for my mate in New York on his photo shoots because I was working for a family and I was working like three hours a day, just at night, just cooking for cooking dinner for them, but living with them. But so I got kind of bored. And in New York, you're in New York, man. You can you can you can fucking do anything? You can do anything, man. You can go to the moon. Like, you know, in Australia, like you're you're a chef here, right? Like I'm a chef. If I said to them I wanted to be a modible, could they be like, mate, pull your head in? You're you're a model, you're you're you're you're a you're a chef.
SPEAKER_03I've never ever heard of that sort of hustle, man.
SPEAKER_04I know, well, I mean, and and and basically how it happened is is um I met this guy uh after 9-11 at uh at a Chris at a New Year's Eve party. He's uh he was an Australian photographer, fashion photographer, and he said, mate, my food on my um on my photo shoots are really shit. Would you be able to come in and do breakfast, morning tea, lunch, and afternoon tea? You get paid per person and there'd be a budget, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, mate, if I can get a map.
SPEAKER_03I find America has this these budgets for food.
SPEAKER_04Oh, on on photo shoots, like yeah, I was getting, I was getting like $350 a day, like budget. Yeah, man, I wouldn't not spend more than $150. So $200 in the claw. And then you do four-day, five-day shoots, you get to look at beautiful women. Um, then I sort of trans, I get transcended that into doing castings for him, and then I'd look through the books, and then I'd take Polaroids, and then I just said to myself, mate, you know, I want to, I want to stop cooking. I'm over it. So he said to me, mate, you should get the you should get a job at a model agency. So I got a job at a model agency as a as an assistant to the booking table. But because I'm a chef, I can multitask, I can do more than one thing, even to the detriment of the rest of the table, saying that, mate, you gotta slow down. You're you're making us all look bad because you're doing two jobs at once. And then um, yeah, so then from there, at the time I had a Brazilian girlfriend, she wanted to move back to Sao Paulo, so I moved to Sao Paulo, um, lived there for just over just under three years. While I was there, I was working, still kind of working, catering with a really famous chef there, doing catering gigs on the weekends with Alex Atala. He's a pretty big chef in in the food world. And then I moved to Paris. And then from Paris, I was there for four years, and then I came back.
SPEAKER_02I love Paris, man.
SPEAKER_04Oh man, it's fun. It was fun back in the public city. Yeah. I mean, I I I mean, you know, I always doing, you know, you just you you you're there, you know what I mean? It's everything is done the right way. I mean, to what they think is. The Parisian way, yeah. Yeah. And then uh I came back uh 2009 and with my brother, we opened up a small little French bistro up on uh Flinder Street called Flinders Inn, which lasted about oh that lasted about 22 months. And then we worked out that there was a sort of the new era Master Chef 2010, no one was going out in the winter, everyone was glued to the TV because this new game show was on, and they were like, oh my god, we gotta, we're cheering for the you know, that that that sort of those those sort of contestants. And then we closed and I said, Fuck, I'm I mean, I'm I've missed the boat. I think I've I wasn't doing any gels or any like foams or anything on any of my dishes. So I thought maybe I've got to do something different. So uh a mate of mine said to me, There's this guy in South Carolina, you should go check him out, you should go see if you can go starge there, which you know starging for work for free. And I uh rode away to the chef called Sean Brock, who was his trajectory was just kind of starting with Southern. Had you right?
SPEAKER_03Did you email him?
SPEAKER_04Just emailed him and I said, Um, hey, I'm from Australia. Um, I'd love to come work for free for a month and do a starge. And he goes, Man, we've never had anyone from Australia. Please come down. Wow. I went um, because I had a visa still from when I was working in America, kind of like uh an extended 01 visa. When I got there, within two weeks I'd asked for a job. I just said, Man, I've got to work here. This place is unbelievable. Yeah, like I've never seen like people talk about farm to table here in Australia, but it's not really farm the table. I mean, it's not the real farm to table, right? So we're talking about the Amish dropping off tomatoes, you know, like the the the the pigs come in with the pig farmer like dumped at the back, and everyone has got to take them off and break them all down and making charcuterie, you know, massive uh smoker trailers and just just sort of ingredients I'd never even like I'd eaten, but I haven't really sort of had any idea of the process of the process. Experience of how the process goes. Yeah, the process goes. Working with um, you know, the Latin community, Guatemalans, Mexicans, um, you know, kind of doing this sort of new style of food, which was, man, it was so romantic in a sense that, you know, I'm I'm here in the south, the first kind of like non-southern person working in these in these venues. The day I started is the day that Husk, the restaurant that I was working for, got voted Bon Appetit Restaurant of the Year.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_04The first day, like I've I signed my work contract, and that day it came out in the magazine. Oh bang. So I um I worked with Sean there for just over 20 months, and then we went to Brazil to do an event with Dave Chang and Daniel Home and Dan Patterson and all these guys. And while I was there, he said to me, Hey man, I'm opening up this new place in Nashville. I said, Oh yeah, man. He goes, Oh, what's your plans? I said, Man, my ex-wife at the time I make spina said, Look, man, I gotta I gotta go back to Australia sooner or later, man. I've been here for a couple of years. So he goes, Oh, that's saying that's that sucks, man, because I was gonna ask you to be the head chef of Husk and Nashville. And I said, actually, I'm not gonna go back. So I ended up taking the job. So I end up taking the job and I um opened up uh Husk and Nashville, and actually it was it was really crazy because at that time when I actually took the job, Nathan, my Nathan Tassie, my business partner now was just about to open up Nomad. Yeah, so we're talking about 20, I think it came around about 2012. 2012. So he was doing this like huge American tour of uh stages and stuff, and he, you know, he asked me, like, oh man, do you think I can come and hang out? So yeah, he came and hung out. And then that the towards the end of his stay, we drove, we drove, we all drove through Atlanta to Nashville to find somewhere to live. I had to find somewhere to live, you know. So he we had a weekend there in Nashville. So um it's it's quite serendipitous that you know, a few years later we opened up a place together. But he was kind of one of the only people that actually came and visited me at that time. At that time, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I I mean That's like a core memory, like and a probably a turning point in your life, I guess, you know, for you to be able to be exposed to this level of um not only cooking, but the level of what I would consider responsibility, yeah. Yeah, uh to a to a foreign person who you haven't, you know, you haven't you've only worked with for a couple years. Yeah, yeah, you've built trust to be able to travel together, and then he's come and trusted you and said, Hey, you know, while we're on this trip, let's he wanted to obviously see you remotely in action. Can I trust him? Yep. Overseas. And then he's like, you know what? Given the option, and then you were surrounded by some of the greats. Oh man.
SPEAKER_04That that experience, Husk. I mean, we you know, we especially on a move to Nashville. It was we opened in 2013. Uh uh, I said I I moved there into 2012 and then all the 22 through. Then I I moved back to Australia to open up bells in 2014. But that sort of two years I had in Nashville was just insane. Like it's Nashville's it's a it's a it's a it's a crazy town because it's a crazy city because you've got country music, you've got uh southern rap, you've got the like that Memphis rap, and then you've got professional sports. You've got the Predators, you got the Memphis Grizzlies, which are the next town of us, huge Memphis Grizzlies, you've got the Titans, Tennessee Titans, NFL. So you've got this like element of like it's a melting pot. It's a melting pot, right? So and then you've got huge black community, huge Latin community, huge white community, huge white community, yeah. Um, and then you've got these men, like you know, we would all every every week, like the black keys are coming, Taylor Swift's coming, Keith Urban, all these people, and some of these people that I I never even know who they were, like Dolly Parton came a couple times, like all this crazy, like and what was the venue like?
SPEAKER_03What was it?
SPEAKER_04Um it was man, it was weird. It was inside, it was like inside this old governor, sort of like a governor's house. So it looked looked very like it looked like kind of like a very rich white person's house. But then they sort of they knocked down one house just to make a car park.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_04And then that sort of wrapped around into the back kitchen, and then we had this sort of like private dining area, which is pretty cool. Kanye and Kim were in there one night doing we did some fried chicken for those guys. Um, and they would we would have like from time to time, we would have like like big private, you know, like private guests back there. Then we had a sort of like a kitchen garden, then you'd had we had a bottom, bottom level sort of like dining area.
SPEAKER_03I think and did you follow the same principle, the the the farms are table there?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, 100%. We had to we had to engage um and I'll give you one story that so like we were getting lots of vegetables and and and and produce from the Mennonites and the Amish on the border of Indiana going up into Indiana, and then the only way you can actually get the vegetables is you have to write a letter. So they send you a letter and you write a letter back, and then you in that letter you post the money, and then someone meets them on the border of Indiana, and then they go back to, you know, but then there's a there's a period of time where they can't in the winter they can't access it because they've only got turnips and cabbage anyway. So that's to self-sustain their their community. But during during the spring summer time, it is and autumn time, the fall time is when it just man, it flourishes, and you get some of the best produce you can even even fathom.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, Peppy Sare actually buying uh cream milk and cream from the Amish now. Oh, really? Yeah, in the States. No way, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So he gets sent here?
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no, no. He's set up in the States.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, man. They make crazy. Because we there was a there's a there's a there's a family we used to use this called the Cruz family. They used to make incredible buttermilk.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, then we used to engage with Wedge Oak Farms, which we they used to do like our pigeon chickens. And man, you you it's not like in Australia, like, I mean, I need 30 chickens, man. You might get 15. Yeah, you just might that's what you get. Like, I mean, pigs are the same thing as well. We used to work with Bear Creek Farm, beautiful family. The cherry family used to have the most incredible beef. And they used the way they used to do it, they say obviously they used to probably do five head a week, and then you if you committed to a certain capacity, capacity, you would get first in line. First in line, sort of thing, right? But then you might just you might just have coolants, or you might just have shin or you might just have this, that's all you have to work with. Like there's man, you you go through when you you know it's like anything, it's like an allocation type thing, right?
SPEAKER_03So So then you were in this melting pot, creativity reflourished. Yep, I guess. You know, you had that transitional period between 2010 and 2012 where it's just like I I'm lost, a bit lost here. I don't know what the world wants because I left the industry. Yep. And your first step, even though that you were a conditioned chef, you literally went back to ground zero and said, Hey men, I'm opening this. Let me starge. And I and I literally say that to I I've I've made so many segments on it, and I've said it time and time again. This is what hospitality is all about. It's not about anybody trying to exploit you, it's literally about you learning the master of the art from somebody else. So someone's devoting their time, their knowledge, everything that they have, and giving you that, and in return, you're giving them time of day.
SPEAKER_04Yep, that's exactly it.
SPEAKER_03And it's a it's an open playbook, like you could learn wherever you want to go, whatever you want to do. If you want to be a master baker, yeah, meant go go to find the best baker in the world. Find the one that aligns with your goals, right? You you want to learn French patisseries?
SPEAKER_04Well, you can go to France and get a star.
SPEAKER_03You don't need to speak French.
SPEAKER_04No, that's you're 100% right. And um and then you move back to Australia, and yeah, so while I was in Nashville, there's there's a a style of fried chicken called Nashville Hot Chicken, which is like, you know, you've got princes, you've got um pepperfigh, you and the the the main one that's kind of like uh I align bells off and okay. I basically I I I style a bit style bit it a little bit. It was called Hattie B's. Hattie B's did Nashville hot chicken and craft beer. I did Nashville hot chicken and natural wine. But where Hattie B's I felt like kind of um.
SPEAKER_03I wouldn't say you stole, did you gain inspiration?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, 100%. No, no, I mean no, we were already doing fried chicken and husks, so I already knew how to fry chicken. It wasn't like I think, but the concept of you know, really just sticking to one type, so you at Hattie B's, you could still get shots and you could still get, but you there's no cocktails. There's like there's there's like a bunch of breweries, and then there's you know, amazing chicken. But I always felt that the sides were just like, man, if they just spent a little bit more time on their sides, but they had like 18 sides, so bells, we had three, and then we added, then we added one more, and we only sort of like rotated four. Yeah, you always had the crinkle cut fries, you always had the mac and cheese, you always had the pickles, and then we'd always like we added colso, and then later on we'd do like a special one, like the broccoli salad with uh the ranch dressing or something like that. I always felt if you sort of focused on having those four or five things and great chicken and nice wine offering and great sauces, I think that th that'd be enough. Everyone said I was pretty crazy because I was just doing chicken, but then we added a mushroom and we added a piece of fish and we did it like a hot fish sort of thing. But that's it, mate. That's it. Like we just said, like, man, you know what? I think Australia it can have niche businesses, hyper niche, yeah, hyper niche businesses where you just go and you just have that, and you you can just you can have that, you can have that in an hour and still go somewhere else, like you know. But we kind of wanted people to kind of hang around and drink and enjoy the enjoy the venue. Every venue kind of looked like a uh a diner. So like we kind of had that diner vibe, vinyl playing. Um, you know, we did shots, we did, we did like collabs with like moonshine companies and stuff like that. So we were Melbourne Moonshine was making us a lot of moonshine for a while. We were just everyone's it's about having a good time, right? So that was 2014, August 1st, which was just last Thursday, 10 years, 10 years on. And um, man, yeah, like it went crazy. Like um it started pretty hardcore, and then we started doing collaborations with other places with mates of mine that you know wanted to, you know, uh wanted to sort of get the vibe, but we did one at icebergs, which was crazy, dude. So crazy. Crazy. That was an iceberg.
SPEAKER_03Fried chicken, fried chicken in one of the best restaurants. One of the most beautiful restaurants in the world. 100% like you're at the most beautiful beach.
SPEAKER_04And the day was perfect. Robert Redford was there, Kim Kardashian was there. It's like not at the pop-up, but they were they were like in the in the icebergs, and they were like, Where are all these people lining up and down the street? We I couldn't even believe it. I I you know, even even up until my last pop-up I did at Bell's, which was in Copenhagen, I didn't think we I always think no one's gonna turn up. Like there's no one gonna turn up to us like maybe like five, six people, and uh, and you know, uh thank god we never had any any ones that were produced.
SPEAKER_03What do you what do you put like, you know, there's there's a lot of There's a lot of guys that tune in that want to start their journey. Yep. And you started around the world of pop-ups.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03How did you even like take that initiative to start the pop-up? And then how'd you go about, you know, finding the location and saying, I want to pop up here. Can I do my shit?
SPEAKER_04I think, man, like the way we did, thank thankfully, I had a lot of friends. Like, man, I did a I did my first ever pop-up I ever did with that nomad. And and Nathan organized that. And then Nathan organized that. I couldn't believe it. I said, man, how many people? He goes, man, we've got about 450 booked. I said, what the f I haven't fried, I haven't fried chicken for more than 40 people. He goes, he goes, Oh, we're gonna learn tonight. We had a deep fry in the middle of the kitchen. It was like we had an extra deep fry. He didn't have a deep fry, an extra deep fry. It was it was insane because I think people have that sort of that idea of you you you can have it for one night only, right? Man, look at Peter Gunn.
SPEAKER_03How'd Peter Gunn start? Peter Gunn was the leader of pop-ups.
SPEAKER_04True. That's he's a he's a boy, man. He's a boy. He's an OG. He's the OG, man. He's OG. But I think like we we the way we used to orchestrate them is we never got a fee. We just said, hey man, just cover the costs. We come in here, man. You keep the revenue, just look after us, like you know, feed us, whatever. You just cover the flights, cover the accommodation, and you and we, you know, I I didn't So you wouldn't take the cash? No, no, that the people take the cash. The venue takes the cash. Venue takes the cash.
SPEAKER_03I think that's that's a big miscon misconception that everyone thinks that you gotta take the cash.
SPEAKER_04No, man. I mean, look, if you if it's a standalone place, if it's a I think if it's like kind of like an independent venue, yeah, like say you're doing it like in a container or something like that, you keep the cash, of course. But if it's like at someone's venue, they gotta close the night, they gotta pay their staff, they gotta pay, they gotta pay rent. Like you're there to promote your brand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I never once took money like to do that. Like I said, man, just cover the costs, take care of the guys. And we don't have to stay at the Sheridan or anything, but we we man, we obviously we don't want to stay with his bed bugs. So, like, you know, like compromise. Compromise. But just man, we're like, like, and and everyone's gonna win because already now the venue doesn't feel like, oh man, we've got to have we've got to make double the amount of money so we can cover his costs and his thing. I mean, it only sort of came later when I started doing stuff with brands. I would ask for a fee. But like generally, if it was my mate's restaurant, I'm not gonna sting him. You know what I mean? You'd like, hey man, I want five grand for that for the $25,000 revenue I'm gonna be able to make you.
SPEAKER_03But man, it just well that that's a misconception about a pop-up. And I think you know, this is like I'm so glad that you're saying this, and I respect it so much. I don't think you understand how much I really respect it. It's a two-way street. These guys are giving up time, yeah, they're giving up their their energy, and even if their venues, it's not a pumping venue, they've got their overhead. You're going, mate, you're giving me the opportunity to pop up here. Yep. I didn't have to build this space, there's a kitchen fitted out here. So you're literally turning around and say, take the revenue, just cover the baseline costs. Yep. Our flights, if we had flights, accommodation, and we're talking like basic accommodation and the food costs.
SPEAKER_04That's it.
SPEAKER_03You guys can't. Not even food costs, man.
SPEAKER_04They they they they buy the ingredients. Yeah, we bring the spice, they brought the ingredients. You you just man, we just have one nice lunch or we we we have some drinks after the pop-up. Man, I it and I think that way it was reciprocal in a sense that like they didn't have the pressure to like, oh man, we have to flood this thing out. And yeah, there's man, some of them were how many pop-ups have you done? Oh man, 82 to 87, something like that. Yeah, like I mean, now I I'm I'm pop up, so I can't do that. I'm too old. I'm too pop. I'm too old. I'm too old to do pop-ups, man. I'm like, it's it's but like man, I I had that sort of idea in my head that look, you know, I mean, I did it with Noma. Yeah, like under the bridge with Noma, like Richard Hard in Copenhagen, Japan, Wagyu Mafia, like fuck, there's been there's been a like, yeah, easy 80, easy 80. And and then like, you know, the stuff in America, I did stuff with with Maddie Matheson. We did the I did the stuff with Action Bronson, you know what I mean? Like it's it it it all it all sort of came about that these were these are cool to do because I wasn't stinging any venue like oh man, you know, I want fucking 10k. Yeah, I wasn't doing that. Like I was just saying man, you you cover my costs, you cover my my my people's costs, yeah. We we we have a nice gym or something. You keep all the revenue, yeah, keep it all, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean? And as we as we transition, you you sold out of bills, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, um, look, I'm not gonna say it's sour or anything, but like I think uh post-COVID, I mean pre-COVID, I had an amazing, yeah, I had an amazing salary. Uh, you know, they they took very good care of me. I had we we had a great GM there. He he Dean, he he took Dean Binghammy took great good care of me. And um I that all changed, I think, once the tran like, you know, when we sort of came back from COVID, I think those sort of base salaries were no longer uh feeling. There was no there was no chance to travel, so there's no pop-ups to promote the brand. The brand was already doing well as it is, and I think they kind of saw it as uh you know, there was there was um there was no money there to pay a guy that doesn't really want to work there, yeah, just change the menu items, and then when you get told, oh no, you get paid for the menu items you change, I'd be like, nah, I think it's time to look at something else. So I I was very, very lucky to do a transitional thing with a couple of really good people in Potts Point. It was called Sunday, it was a rotisserie chicken uh venue. And um then Nathan and I, we sort of we've always wanted to do something together. Yeah, man, I got thrown a lifeline there because I mean I was doing ceramics and um and not really cooking as much, I guess. So I was just trying to find out what I was actually going to be doing. Um but how old are you? 50. 50 years old.
SPEAKER_03And even at the age of 48 to 50, you're still trying to navigate your life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I mean, it's it never sort of ends, you know what I mean. Like you, I think you're always trying to look for opportunities and and and set goals for yourself and set goals for you know people around you. I want now I'm I'm in a kind of like uh mentoring state where I want to just see really cool kids coming through and uh see where they um where where they want where they want to go with their with their food with their food dreams, you know what I mean? Like I mean, it's a different era now, man. Like it's so different uh way we have to uh align ourselves with our staff and and the way we gotta try to encourage them. I mean, I'm not perfect. I I I mean I you know I still sort of I can still like crack it sometimes and it you sort of really sort of grab yourself that you there's no there's no room for those Gordon Ramsay guys anymore, man. There's those days are over, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03So I don't even think Gordon Ramsay is actually like that anymore, to be honest. I think it's a show. Yeah, I get I get exactly what you mean. I think you know, I guess we've had this pandemic's been a double-edged sword for a lot of people and for everyone where we've all lost from it. Okay I think we've all lost a lot, especially in this industry. And it's it's okay to say that we've lost, right? Yeah, some guys profited in that space, some guys doubled down and they they made they made it, and hats off to them. They they turned something disgusting into something amazing. But I think everyone learned how to become a better human. That's true during that period. Yep, you know, compassion came back out, which is something that we're losing in that time. I think between in Australia, especially between 2013 and 2019, there was this rapid growth. The economy was just like booming, booming, cash was flying everywhere, yep, everyone was turning to different vices at times, right? Yep, and because it was just you you're just settling the pain with other shit just to keep going. Um, and you were in this you were in this consistent rut all the time, and you're just running, running, running, running, chasing, chasing behind your towel. Yep. And then someone just came and gave you a knockout. And I think that that in itself made a lot of people work on themselves. Some people, unfortunately, sadly enough, haven't been able to come out of that. And that's where like I worked on myself in that period more than anything. I in 22, I was like, what the hell do I want to do with my life? It just made me stop and think, you know, like, is what I'm doing actually what I want to do? And then that's when I re-pivoted and I said, very similar to you, I was like, you know what? I went on this journey, I found myself, how can I now help someone else find themselves? Yeah, and that that's now been the whole purpose of the Hospital Dojo, where I'm like, okay, how can I how can I help an individual a day? That's my thing. So if it means bringing like-minded people together in a room, sharing an old old story, and saying, This is what I learned from this, great. This might be my God-given talent. You cook, I design the kitchens that you work in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So my talent is I can design a beautiful box or a kitchen for you to be able to, for you to be able to do your passion. And if I can help you design your kitchen more efficiently and optimize it and teach you something along the way that you probably would never been exposed to, I've done my job. And uh, you know, along that line, there's a lot of people that um that I meet that have different business experiences, more than I've ever had, more than I will ever have. And it's like, you know, and I always look at, you know, like for you to be able to just pick up and leave and then always be nomadic and and consistently be, you know, moving around between different jobs, but not jobless, but in the sense of still finding yourself and finding that journey, man, that's inspiring. It's like, you know what, like the world's not over. No, you changed careers and you came back stronger than ever. Yeah. You know, and you and you built a beautiful network. So, you know, Morgan, what's one piece of advice you'd give to, you know, that young up-and-coming chef who's hungry, who's, you know, he's found himself. He goes, you know what, I want to become a chef. That's it. I I am a chef, I I own this. What's one piece of advice you'd give to them?
SPEAKER_04I really do believe that you need you need to put in the hours. You need to put in hours. There is no way humanly possible that you can be a chef the level of the top chefs in the world without putting in hours. And they're hours that you know, you might have to turn off the clock and work by back, you might have to, man, come in on your days off, you might even have to come in a couple hours early. I mean, we we live in this society now where every hour is counted. And um I do honestly believe in work life balance, but I also believe if you want to be in the top 10% of of any any anything, anything. Yep, it it takes commitment and it takes hours. Like it's not it's not gonna come from a YouTube channel, it's not gonna come from a cookbook, it's gonna come in putting in the hours, it's gonna be coming chopping that onion, it's gonna be coming in like slicing that piece of beef, it's gonna be coming in like getting in, filleting a fish, it's gonna be coming from that.
SPEAKER_03That's where it's that repetitive repetitive muscle memory that you need to in a chef's world, you need to keep on training and you know, um how I'd like to say is is practicing, obviously in a controlled environment and honing those skills, you know. And I also find that if you want to be a greater individual in in whatever case, in whatever in whatever field that you want to go into, but in in this line, let's say chefing, if you're a great chef, great. You've learned you've learnt your chef skills and whatnot, awesome. But what if you go learn a bit of butchery?
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03What if you go work behind the fishmonger for a little bit, you know? Learn those different act aspects and find your passion within. Learn how to cook with fire.
SPEAKER_04Yep. 100%.
SPEAKER_03Learn how to cook a pizza. Like you gotta learn the different dynamics, and it's you know, it's not just gonna come to you because you've seen a venue do really well, you want to do that. Because proof is in the pudding. This guy has seen trends come and go. Oh mate, what's the average lifespan of your venues that you've had?
SPEAKER_04Um well, I had the you know, obviously the one that failed was um just under two years. Yeah. And and we're we're talking about like when it was meant to be yeah, pumping.
SPEAKER_03It was pumped. And what do you think was the biggest um cause of that failure?
SPEAKER_04I I honestly think location, not some people don't pay uh play into location. I mean, this was a time also too that Uber just started. So people were trying to navigate um how to use Uber. Um, we were in this sort of like main street, which is Flinders Street, like uh coming down towards uh Captain Cook uh Lang Road sort of thing. And man, you couldn't stop. Like, I mean, if you're in a taxi, you couldn't stop the parking as well, but also too, that was a sort of 2009-2010 was when like Mark restaurant was massive. They got like 19 out of 20 for the lunch menus.
SPEAKER_03I mean I was like 16.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so like they they this restaurant, this restaurant got like like 18 or 19 out of 20 for a lunch special menu. It's like fuck man, we we we might as well just close lunches. So I mean you know, and also too, we were doing this. Um I th I thought the food was unbelievably well executed. Uh price point was great. Um myself and Manu Flip uh Manu Fidel, they had they had um they had their own sort of French bistro not very far from us. Um Manu had one. Manu had one, yeah. It's called La Toile. So there was like in Paddington. My dad loved that place. Yeah, so we it was us versus them. Yeah, we were but it was a good rivalry. But it was a good rivalry. Not a shit one or anything like that, but like um we we kind of like you know, that sort of woke me up to thinking, like, man, maybe I've missed the mark on where the market's gone. Because you mean you had these guys doing these gels and using all these chemical, using all this like molecular gastronomy, yeah, like deconstructing.
SPEAKER_03Sous-V was coming back.
SPEAKER_04I even got a Sous-V machine, I didn't even know how to use it.
SPEAKER_03That's what I'm saying. Sous-V came in, paco Jets.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but like mate, like I thermomix, I did I used to use it the to make icing sugar. That's that's um I I didn't even know how to use it, right? So, like you're getting all this equipment. I mean, I'm I'm a chef from the 90s, man. I'm trying to use this, all this modern equipment sous vid machine. I'll give you an idea. Like, I I was sous-viding lamb rump and I was like, oh, when do I start? I I didn't even know how to use a thing. Like I was putting this lamb rump in there and I was wondering, well, why is it still so tough? Yeah. Because I didn't know how to use it properly. Yeah. So yeah, and I sort of just kind of mixed the mark, missed the mark, but then eventually all that sort of stuff sort of subsided, right? Everyone got back to like cooking properly, cooking with over charcoal. Um going back to basic, yeah. I think it it was even as early as 204, 2013, 2014 when you started seeing restaurants, or 2012, 20, yeah. So 2012, 2013, 2014 is when you started seeing restaurants actually cooking again and the sous-vie machines were like not really being used. No gone. Um and then also too, then like later on came cooking on fire. Like now, man, you go everywhere. There's there's charcoal everywhere, you know what I mean? And and that's a that's an amazing thing. Like uh, you know, like I love I love food cooked over fire. I love fi I love food cooked over charcoal. Um I think it's and now we have a we have a space in most restaurants so they have either like a hibachi or a massive you know, wood fired oven and the whole the whole kit, you know what I mean? Who knows where it's gonna go after this?
SPEAKER_03I mean I I hope it sort of stays on this trajectory of being like where food is really, really I think food is just becoming more as the time goes on, people just want simpler dishes that taste really, really fucking good. Yeah, that's what it's all about the produce.
SPEAKER_04I think I think it's about produce. Yeah, I also think it's about the way it's handled and executed, and I think the biggest one ever is the price point.
SPEAKER_03And you know, I'm a bit off topic, but what was your biggest financial?
SPEAKER_042016, my original business partner, Reno Petonio, man, he came up to me and said, Look, man, I'm I'm I'm nearly 70. I want I know you want to do this global expansion, you want to fucking take it to the take it to Interstate, take it here, take it. They had all these grandiose plans. He said, Look, man, I might I'm like look at someone buying my shares and you man, I want to I want to make sure you're cool with it. And I said, Oh, who you think you're gonna sell to? And he goes, Um, well, I might sell to this pub group who are now the owners, my who were my business partners, hundred burgers. And I said at the time, how much do you want for your share? And he said, like, oh whatever it was. Yeah, whatever it was. And at that time I thought, I couldn't find that money, I wouldn't be able to find it. Man, I'd be able to find it in five minutes now. You know what I mean? Like that you're because my mindset was was so different, like, oh no, I've just started this business. I mean, I you know, I I didn't think I could even find 15k, but this was like, I mean, a lot more than that. Yeah, of course. And I wish that I wish, you know, if I could go back in time and I would try to.
SPEAKER_03I know.
SPEAKER_04And then like, you know, the the the those guys aren't, they're not bad guys, the 100 burgers guys. So you know, we did a lot of different ventures together, we opened a lot of bells together, and um, but uh, you know, our journey sort of finished, you know what I mean? So um, I got nothing bad to say about those guys, but man, I wish I had the opportunity. I had the opportunity to buy them out. And I had all these people say to me, like, man, we'll get you the money. And I said, No, it's too much money. I don't even know how what happens if I can't pay it back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then now it's just don't you wish you had like Nathan there at that point?
SPEAKER_04Everyone needs a Nathan Sassy, mate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Genius. And it's and that's that's important, like to recognize your strengths and your weaknesses in business, and that you know, you have a partner that has their strengths and weaknesses, right? And I guess um something that I want to touch on, I know I know you mentioned it a couple times, and I don't want to put salt on old wounds, but you know, this whole podcast is always about trying to give actionable insight or some piece of advice um to someone else. How you know, you've been a chef 50 years, you mentioned work-life balance. How do you manage to have um or what have you learned anyway about the family dynamic in in going home at the at the end of the day? How do you manage to try to keep that all together now?
SPEAKER_04I co-parent with my ex-wife's we have a son together, he's uh five. I mean, she's a chef, she's the executive chef at Fratelli Paradiso, so she's uh she cooks there. So we we do a three and a half day on, three and a half day off sort of thing. Um he goes to daycare. The big the biggest challenge I think is gonna be next year when he goes to school, because he's gonna go to school next year, big school. Um, because I kind of like the 6 p.m. sort of close downs at daycare, and it's now gonna change to like 3:30 or 3 o'clock or whatever it is to do the pickup. Fuck, that's gonna be a real big change. And it's big different. Like uh, but the greatest thing is that my business partners, Nathan and Sally, they they got two young boys, so like we we've always had that sort of understanding, then the you know, family's first, you know what I mean? Like we we we we work for the business, we work to the best for the business, but man, family comes first always. We've always had that that that great dynamic with that. I mean we because of course we we work we in conjunction with our when he's with his mum, I work, and then when he's not with his mum, I yeah, or maybe I do a day shift, right? So then I can still pick him up at night. But man, that time with my son is the most important time. So I I don't want to miss that. So we we always sort of respect each other's schedules amongst the business, in the business that um we get to spend quality time with our with our kids. And that's I think that sort of helps you grow as an owner, as a business, like as a as a mentor to your to your staff as well. Because if you don't have that balance, man, you you're gonna it it eats you up, right? It throws you out. Um, you know, we fortunately we were able to travel with the business and go overseas. And I always know when we because we we we always travel together. It's like myself, Nathan, Sally, she's our business partner as well, Nathan's wife. And it's always towards the end of the trip, we're kind of like, we've got to get back for our kids. So it's like, yeah, it does it's it's great to be away, but it's also it's it's important to also be able to share those sort of moments with them. Yeah. And um, you know, the his boys and my boy will will grow up in this business together and see and hopefully work there. And you know, we we there's so many people I know, like look at Neil Perry's kids. They they work at Margaret, you know.
SPEAKER_03I was I was in the back of a kitchen at the eight age of eight years old, washing dishes. Yeah. And it was the best time I got to spend with my dad. And then Um used to cut deli meat at like 10 and then uh was making coffee at 12 in a cafe in the Blue Mountains. I'd wake up at like 6 a.m. and go out, go and spend 4:30 a.m., 5 a.m. My cousin would pick me up and we'd go up to the Blue Mountains and we work at this little cafe. There was a deli pizzeria, you know, something very different for the area. They didn't actually understand what Neapolitan style pizza was there. Um, but now they do. Uh, but that was way before its time. But the same thing, like it's I always found that I learned life lessons within that working environment on the kitchen on the floor, communicating with people, and then like between the ages of 14, um, between 13 and and and 15, I was literally just running food. Yeah, I was a food runner, dressed in all black, like you know, you know, like black, you used to wear your best black shirt, your best black pants, and your black shoes, and and run, and run food um in the venue, and just you know, uh be a glassy, clean up the glasses, clean up the dishes, and and just go up and back, up and back, up and back. But yeah, it taught you how to be a better person by being able to communicate with customers. And I feel like, you know, in in any family business dynamic, I think it's important to give your children the opportunity to know or to learn responsible. I don't have children yet, but this is how I learned in my family was I always had a sense of responsibility. And I found that when I had responsibility, I had purpose. Yep. And when you had purpose, when you go to school, you knew that okay, after school, on Thursday or Friday, before I say yes to my mates, oh shit, I actually got to help dad out.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03You know, it was always about helping dad. Dad didn't need my help. I know he never wanted my help, but he just wanted me to learn. Yeah, exactly. He could have paid someone to right, yep. But it was more it was more so that the way that he instilled it with me was like, I'm actually helping dad out. So then I felt like I had a purpose, but then I also felt like I was contributing back to the family. Yep. You know, and then that that that that built a stronger relationship for me and my family anyway. So if that's a yeah, piece of advice back for you hearing it from. No, I know, man.
SPEAKER_04I mean, look, I mean the thing, the crazy thing is that like you know, we work in the hospitality industry. Yep. We have to learn to be hospitable. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's the the the thing is that like I think sometimes people in this industry feel like what's in it for me more than what's in it for the guest. You know what I mean? Like, and we we we we're a massive um component in our in our business is about guest experience because we want to be hospitable. That's we're in the hospitality industry. So I mean, I want to teach my child the responsibilities of the what you learned as well and how I learned to be uh become a man as well. So um responsibility is a massive amazing thing that you can pass on to your child. And that you know, I think most kids they wanna they wanna like they want to help. Yeah, they want to be here, they want to like my my kid like man, you know, you don't you don't you don't get that uh you don't get that uh mentos if you don't uh pick up your stuff. You know what I mean? Like you have to, I mean obviously they there's a bit of a give and take, but like I I I always feel that like that if you teach them really young, like I learned when I was really young, mate, mate.
SPEAKER_03It's like mate, uh the owners of Bon Riccardo here, amazing Italian restaurant, Dave and Rose. Yeah, school holidays, the kid's got an apron, uh wrapping up Kaleids in the kitchen. He's four years old, bro, standing on a stool. Yeah, and he's walking around the restaurant with a with a with a um tea towel on his shoulder. Shoulder. Okay, and then he walked up to me and he goes, Would you like some still and sparkling water? Still or sparkling. Yeah. And he'll grab the still water and then he'll ask his dad, can I grab the nice glass? And his dad will say, Yes, just be very careful. Four years old. Four years old, mate. That's it. And he comes to my table and he pours me a still of like a Sam Pow.
SPEAKER_04Bang. Bang. And kids four years old.
SPEAKER_03But it's not about working them, it's about just exposing them and giving them just giving them that bit of freedom.
SPEAKER_04I think exposure is is one of the most like under, you know, you know, one of those sort of like um opportunities that people don't to take advantage of. 100%, man. You know, if you're exposed to, I mean, it's like anything, if you're exposed to violence, if you're exposed to like uh luxury luxury, all those sort of things. But if you're exposed to seeing your parents work, yeah, um, then you think, oh man, it's cool to work. Yeah you know what I mean. When it's cool to work, then you're gonna do great things, great things. 100%.
SPEAKER_03And uh Morgan, just to just to sort of wrap up for today, if there's uh one thing you could tell your younger self today, if you if you seen yourself at the barrel of the camera and you could tell your younger self something, what would it be?
SPEAKER_04Um when I think about it now, more like you know, 50. I started cooking when I was, you know, 16, 17, which is like 33, 33 years in this industry, which is like it's crazy to think that, you know, all the experience, even though I had that little break with the fashion thing and stuff like that, but it's still like that all grew your skills. It's all grew my grew sk different skill set, right? So I think if I could do it all over again, I would have just, you know, learnt to just I reckon I would have just learned to like just take it in a bit more. I was always sort of rushing to do the next thing, do the next thing, do the next thing. And I never really stopped. Yeah, I never really stopped to smell the roses half the time. Even with bells. Like, I mean, I we were just I was just like on a mission to just get this thing global, get this thing global, get this thing global, get this thing global. That I was, man, you know, some of the places we my my business partner Christian and I we were we did this uh harvest party in Austria one time for this really cool uh wine brand called Gudegal. While we were there, mate, we were working out how we're gonna get this, do this pop-up in Russia. Because I was like, mate, we're gonna go to Russia, we can go to Russia, because we're going, we were doing this tour. Yeah, so we did Paris, we did Paris, we did Austria, then we went to we were going to Copenhagen, and so we did Copenhagen, then we then we bounced. But while we're in Copenhagen, I said, man, we can get we can fit in Russia, right? Yeah. This is before COVID and before the war and everything. So like it was pretty cool. So I I never really sort of stopped sometimes to just really sort of take it in. And and I feel like, you know, as I got older, now that I'm 50, I really want to sort of take the time to really appreciate what you build, what you what you uh what you teach and and and what you learn. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_03I I think that's a you know, I think one way to do that, and now I'm just self-reflecting on me, you know, I've I've just literally been touring for the past year up and back everywhere. And I felt the same way. I was like, man, I I don't I don't get to stop and and embrace what's around me. And I think what's important is as you build your schedule, because especially in this day and age, we're so schedule driven, and it's sad, but unfortunately, it's how business needs to run and it's how we need to operate. Okay. So like now I schedule, I actually for myself, this is how I run my my personal life is I schedule every single part of my day. So I block out time to have dinner with my wife every night. So whatever the time that is, I actually block it out in my calendar because my calendar is open internationally now. So I get people from overseas booking calls in from the UAE, from the US, from the UK, from Australia, right? How do I keep up with all this? It's I need to book in time. So this is the time that I go to the gym, I lock my calendar out. This is the time that I have dinner, I lock my calendar out, this is the time that I have lunch, I book the calendar out. People think I'm crazy, but that that's what I need to do. So but now I'm thinking, right now you hit a light bulb in my head. I'm thinking when I'm traveling, I've got to book a day on either end of it in the beginning and the end, so that way I can embrace and smell the roses.
SPEAKER_04100%.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's important.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we we we actually did that on this last trip that we did to London. We we didn't plan from the trip that we did before, with we and we we didn't plan the first day, and it was probably one of the best days we had because we didn't have a schedule. Just we went to a pub, we we had great lunch, we you know, we we had a dinner plan, but we didn't have a day plan. So we you know you arrive into London at 6 a.m. in the morning, it's going to have a free time, but we we we we kind of like enjoyed instead of go, go, go, go, go, and then um, yeah, it sort of set us set the precedent for the trip for the rest of the rest of the time.
SPEAKER_03So, as Morgan says, guys, take a step back and smell the roses. That's it. Hey, my brother, I really appreciate your time today. We look forward to seeing your new venues, Bessie and Almas coming up. Yep. I look forward to seeing your invitation because I want to eat your beautiful feud. All right, and uh, and uh, you know, everyone's spoken about uh your current bar and pop-up, and we actually sent some people over there for some inspiration. I think they love your little sando. Yeah, the little white whiteing sando, yeah, man. So great. Yeah, that's it. Again, Morgan, thank you so much. Thank you, sir. Really appreciate the love.