SPEAKER_02 0:00

I loved eating. Everything about my time off was eating. But I think at first it started with like you have all this passion for food and also this notion of bringing people together was very important. And so when you're like that, you're consistently just working harder, right? I felt like I had to work harder than everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

You find yourself in like your own pocket and you just deep work. Yeah, that was it. What's one piece of advice you'd give to a chef who's starting out their career just like you did? Ivan Prim.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

How's it going, Paul? Welcome to Sydney, Australia, my brother. Thank you very much. I definitely feel welcome. You feel you how's it been grounding yourself here?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Lovely, great energy. It's a bit mucky outside. The weather's been a bit different. But it's lovely. And it's good to feel a bit of cold, you know. Singapore, we have uh half seasons. Yeah. It's nice to be a bit chilly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

A bit chilly get different senses in your body. Makes it tingling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like having an ice bath without having to get in the ice, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I got those pocket warmers today.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I'm ready to do that. You're ready to use them? Yeah, for sure. Have you been around? Have you gone seen vivid? Have you seen any of the vivid, the lights?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Not quite. We just uh walked around aimlessly today. Okay, beautiful. I came with my sous chef and uh a pole also, and we had some lunch. It was nice. Where'd you go for lunch? Um a couple of places. We just uh hopscotch.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, went in and out, yeah. One little bite here, one little bite there. That was it. That's great. That's great. Uh Yvonne, I've uh I've had the blessing to be in your space at Restaurant Nori, but a lot of people haven't. Uh a lot of guys that follow me, you know, they they've uh every time I posted a photo of that that venue, they're like, wow, what what's this? Something out of this world, right? Um first of all, before we go into detail on your amazing venue, let's let's let's peel back the layers and let's find out a little bit about you. So where where are you from? What's your heritage?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I'm from Brazil. I'm first generation, first and a half generation, again, if you measure, depending on how you measure. Yeah. I have on my dad's side of the family, uh part of the family is Russian and German, and then my mom's side of the family uh were Syrian, Lebanese, Italian, and Spanish. Well, and so, and like most Brazilians, it's all like a big mess, right? Yeah. I think it's uh it's a country made up of immigrants, really. Um very similar. Yeah, and I think it materialized in a similar fashion, you know, the way that we express it in our food, the way that we welcome other cultures and are curious about other types of food. Yep. So I'm from that kind of context. And I guess uh being in an environment where there's so much diversity all the time and within a family that's so diverse, uh, figuring out how to translate was a really important part of my so did you speak different languages at home? We did. We tried, they tried teaching me German, it didn't really work. But I I think food was the way that we kind of anchored it all. Yeah. Um, and I think translation and customs as well, you know, like these cultural differences, like one side of the family is super white, the other side of the family super isn't, and all of that uh was was uh an interesting kind of childhood. And so I I grew up in a very diverse environment. Wow, and siblings? Yeah, I have a brother. His name's Pedro, he's a movie maker. Well, he's based in New York, and I have a sister.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Beautiful, yeah, Ingrid. That's nice. And uh when did you decide to become a chef?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

I was on my late teenagehood. Uh I had come from a family of lawyers, and I thought for my entire life, and so did everybody else, that I was just gonna follow on my mom and my granddad's footsteps. And one day I remember opening a magazine, it was an ad for a cordon bleu course that was kind of partnership between Cordon Bleau and Alliance Francaise, so you can learn French and learn how to cook at the same time. And it had this picture of a chef lady, the big toque. A lady, yeah, and it was a chef lady, yeah. And it said, we chef, and it looked like uh great pop propaganda. Yeah, and then I just saw the image and like that's what I'm gonna do. And it was really like before then, I never thought about it. I loved eating. Everything about my time off was eating. Uh, restaurant life for me was amazing as a diner. I used to love going to dine. Whereabouts in Brazil would you live? Sao Paulo. Oh, that's a restaurant heaven. Small city. Yeah. Restaurant heaven, though. It's a tiny, tiny little place. And uh, and so eating was a big part of my life, but I never realized it was a job. And that was a really bizarre thing. I mean, food was always something that was about family, about connection. It wasn't labor, right? And when I saw the chef, I was like, oh, it's actually a career. And it just it shattered any other plan I had. And from there on, it was just really go cook. Why though? I I think at first it was this notion of uh giving pleasure to people, you know. And like I realized that a lot of the negotiation and community building, discussion, bringing the family together. We had like these crazy debate-like style dinners, you know. My granddad's like a he's an intellectual, he loves talking, he loves getting people's feedback and like teasing opinions out of people, and all of that happened through food. And if the food was good, the conversation kind of continued, you know. And so I think at first it started with like you have all this passion for food, and also this notion of bringing people together was very important. So I think at first it was that click. Wow. Um, and then quickly, just expression, you know, there's a side of the family that's super artistic, um, either proper artists or frustrated artists in some way.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

They're still frustrated or not, they're still artists. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

And and I just connecting with that part, you know, expression was an interesting thing for me. And when I started to realize what was happening in the food world, the more excited you get, you start researching. And it was right when O Boole was booming. There are restaurants like Mugaritz that were just starting to come up. You had that entire Spanish kind of renaissance, and that that for me was just magical, man. I was looking at what people were doing, like, wow, food can be like this. It was like a movement, right? It was, and it changed really how we cook, how we see food. And so that's that's kind of how it started for me. That's amazing. And where did you start your career? I so my mother and my grandfather uh picketed against it completely. There was a whole crash in the family. There was like, where's the little lawyer is not gonna be a lawyer anymore? And so for a while, I had to like show that I wanted it and that this was real and not just a whim. And so I did a small course. You had to prove yourself, yeah, to the family. I did a small course and I was hooked. Like they they thought I was gonna go and just this is too hard, screw it. And I came back and I just I was like bright-eyed and super excited about it. And from there on, I did a six-month, no, a year course in Brazil, and then it talking to one of the teachers was American, um, got recommended to go to the Culinary Institute of America, ended up going to the Culinary Institute of America and did a formal year and a half of training. I was enrolled for a bachelor's, but I decided to not pursue it. I was just seeing people work and develop as chefs, and I felt the bachelor's was holding me back in some ways. I knew what I wanted to do, and that's kind of how it started from the US. I just got jobs and started traveling.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, I guess you know, that that key point of you knowing what you wanted to do. A bachelor's degree really just teaches you how to think.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, yeah. And I I was there, like I was on it. I I inhaled work, you know. I was very curious. And the more information I could get, the better, you know. I was eating books like crazy, I was studying food like crazy, and also like quite insecure about the job, always thinking everybody was ahead, you know. And so when you're like that, you're consistently just working harder, right? I felt like I had to work harder than everybody else. You find yourself in like your own pocket and you just deep work.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, that was it. Just just just keep keep keep going at it, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

It was yeah, super focused. I was fortunate enough to have many friends. There was they were just as passionate as I was. And um, I remember it's just incredible. Like we were very serious about the gig, you know. It wasn't just a job, it was very much a life choice, a lifestyle. Yeah, and I drank every I drank the Kool-Aid. So after school, uh I stayed in the city. I worked at a couple of places. One of them was per se, and then I left Per se to work at a place called Applewood in Brooklyn. Okay. Um still around? Applewood might still be around. Dave's a phenomenal guy, and he was pretty much a champion of like the the farm to table movement in in New York. What year was that? Don't ask me times. Around 07, yeah, I think 07, probably around 07, 08. Crazy time, GFC. Yeah, yeah. All right. So it was I I spent uh I loved being in the US. And New York was a good place to be alone and very young, you know. Like you're that was very exposed. Yeah, you're in a city, you're in a bit, you're in a jungle.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, it's it's a different base there. Oh my god. It's a different I I literally just got back from New York not long ago, and I my whole take on business has changed. Yeah. It just like, you know, it's so different. But sorry, continue our.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

They they definitely have a neck for um making it a business. You know, it's an incredible thing. Things are run uh tremendously well. Yep, machines are very well oiled, and it was very nice, but also nice to be around like immigrant communities and like to see that side of also the life, you know, like to be trained by Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Mexicans, and that community is like very much powering through the entire movement, right? Realistically, nothing moves there without immigrants, yeah. And it was lovely to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Well, they embrace it too, right? Yeah, very much so. Like they know that hey, we can't we can't function without these guys. Yeah, very much so. And they embrace it and they respect it. That's what I find.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah, no, I'd learned a ton, and uh it was phenomenal. After leaving the US, I just started traveling from the US. I went to Spain. Whereabouts? Uh bus country at first, they spent some time in Ugaritz, then moved to Madrid. Um, worked at a place called La Broche, and then La Terraza del Casino, which is a restaurant owned by Paco Roncero. Yes. Uh, and eventually um did a stint at a uh it was kind of like a Scandinavian bistro called Olsen, uh, and then left Spain and uh from Spain went to Italy, um, Piemonte. Yep. Spent a good amount of time like in in doubt between the wine world and the food world. Obviously, it's an incredible wine country there.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

And I I think Italy's a complete like a uh an incredible food country.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, I you got that right. I think within the first five minutes of arriving, I knew it was different. And this uh connection with food on a very intimate level, you know. I mean, everybody loves food, don't get me wrong, but the Italians do it in a way that you can't really mimic. And I remember my first interaction was in a train station, and there's this older gentleman, and he had a pack of cartoons in a bag that was just almost taller than he was, you know, and he was just walking around with cartoons going home, and it felt like I was in the right place, you know, it was awesome. There I worked at an osteria and then a hotel, uh, and then came back to this osteria. It's called I Sognatori, it's still an alba in Piemonte, and it was a beautiful experience and very nurturing as well. It was at a time where I needed that. What I love about Italy is they keep their produce in the purest form. Yeah, you don't don't screw about, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Don't fuck with the food, man. No, man.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I remember I just come back from Spain working at all of these restaurants that are like super pushy, right? And I was at this hostelia, and I remember one of my first the trial, the chef said, uh hi, could you um like just plate up these roast dishes and and so the waiter can take it to this table? And I just went like full on it, and uh, he looked at it and cracked up. He couldn't control his laughter and was like, Why are you laughing at me? He's like, watch this. Took the plates, gave them to the waitress who started laughing immediately, and then he said, Take this to table, whatever. And then he called me to the kitchen window to look through the to look through the past, and I just saw the plates be delivered to the guests, and both the guests looked at the plate and started laughing as well. And I'm like, I think there I learned a pretty uh clear lesson, you know, like a bit of humbling, right? Oh, it's phenomenal. And it really kind of set the mind straight in regards to some things.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

It was awesome. Italy's always about simplicity. I feel like you know, when I was in the Tuscan region, just the cheese, the dairy, the meat, like you you and it just didn't need anything. It just literally olive oil, salt. You're lucky if you put a bit of pepper, yeah, and that's it. Yeah, you know. So uh after Italy, you you you did you do a lot of your time there, or did you move?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

I spent about a year and a little bit, okay, and then went to England. Uh I worked at a restaurant called Hibiscus uh in London. Originally it was in a place called Ludlow, just uh almost on the border there with uh Wales. Okay, close to Swansea. And I it was the last few months of that that restaurant there, it was a two-star um in this small, tiny little village. Uh Claude Bossi is the chef. Palm to table. Um no, it was like super forward thinking, actually. They trained under phenomenal people. Um uh Larpege was one of the restaurants that he worked at, and Claude's a phenomenal cook and uh was very much pushing the envelope there. Um also an incredible amount of knowledge in regards to just the technique, but also flavors, you know, there's a very uh creative flavor matcher.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

How do those restaurants like, you know, you you traveled, you've traveled, and going to a small town like that and having two emission stars there, how's a restaurant like that say sustainable and attract consumers to keep dining there? Like, what did you find was the way they did that?

SPEAKER_02 15:28

I think at the time it was financially viable, but it still worked. I think there were affordable lunch menus, uh, and I I would say it wasn't necessarily easy for him, but it it was enough to keep the Russian afloat and to build his reputation a name so he could move to London. Uh but it was cheaper also. Like uh at that moment in time, a rush a two Michelin star Russian in the middle of a tiny little town wasn't that expensive comparatively, right? And it's enough in part of the UK as well, realistically.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

There's there are good sophisticated diners, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

But England has has like all of these little pockets, right? And people did travel. So we moved to London, uh, where I stayed at the Rashid for about a year, and then eventually ended up at the Fat Duck where I spent a significant amount of time. How was London? London was a beast at the time that I was there. I was actually talking about it today. It it was a a really intense city, and I think at that time, probably the best food city in the world. Everybody was just very interested in what everybody was doing. The community was incredibly competitive. Uh, and there were a ton of amazing restaurants there. It was at the height of Ramsey, you know, it was the boom of the Fat Duck. There's so many other amazing restaurants that were popping up: the square, hibiscus, and um Little Edbury, all of these places were just uh uh there and super established, but it was a hard kitchen culture city, you know. Um, it was just as competitive internally in the restaurants as it was outside, and it was cutthroats. Like if you've ever watched Boiling Point, those things were real. They're not just made for TV, you know. It was uh, and I remember very clearly how intense it was. It was edifying beyond belief. It was really, I think working in the UK completely gave me the tools to be able to do what I'm doing today. It taught me a lot about what to do, but also what not to do as far as management's concern. It was a brilliant time. I have a lot of very good memories. In in in working in a place like the fat duck.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

What would you describe how did you survive in the kitchen?

SPEAKER_02 17:53

The duck was an outlier as far as kitchen culture is concerned. I think uh having worked at I did stints at places like Petruse, for example, I worked at other places while trying to figure out where I wanted to be. And the duck is outside of London, right? And at that time, it was a restaurant that was run by a chef, wasn't necessarily a trained chef, hadn't really worked in other places. It had a culture that kind of grew organically from Heston's head and the people that he was surrounded by through the initial years. And so it it was really a very unique place. Uh it was very different to other restaurants. It was a place also that over the time that it matured in the first eight to ten years, it understood uh that it needed to treat its staff differently, to talk to people differently, to uh communicate internally, to market internally. And so people were trained and you know, I remember my first day there, a chef asked me to take something to go vacuum pack a bag into the shed. The vacuum pack was set up in a shed outside. And he said, Um, excuse me, but would you mind taking this to the shed and vacuum packing this for me? Thank you. And he turned around, walked to him and was like, What the hell's going on? Like, is this uh like a trick? Is somebody gonna throw something at me? It was just coming from a completely different Russian environment. But people are like, hey, why don't you try this? You know, it was amazing. The culture within the kitchen, at the time, the restaurant was uh just the recipient of the best, best restaurant in the world and the 50 Best Award. It had, I think, three years of uh uh three Michelin stars on its back, and it was um just about to publish the or finish actually writing the Big Fat Duck cookbook. The people that it attracted were like incredibly excited about being there. I remember services, we would talk uh while we were cooking about food chemistry, about history, about food science, about how to perfect what we're doing, and like have like full conversations. All the chef departies around. This is something that we've kind of internalized in our own restaurant. Like these conversations have to they happen naturally during service and they have an impact that's so beneficial, you know. The team's tight and together and focused. Uh, it was awesome. It was such a wonderful experience. How many years were you there? Just below six.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Um, and I did a stint before for about five months, an internship there before. Yep. I loved it. It was a phenomenal thing. It was beautiful. The second best thing I've ever done, I think. The first was leaving it. Really? Yeah. The the and it was, I think it's the same for everybody that spend their their time in the FATUC. It was really edifying. I've met I've not met people that have not gone through what that Russian was at that time specifically. Uh and um that wouldn't say the same thing, you know. It really helped them pursue what they wanted. And it's true, you see it everywhere. You know, it was just with Johnny Lake from Trivet who did a collaboration there. Trivet just won its second star, and he was my boss back when I was a sprightly young lad learning learning the ropes, and it was uh we were talking about this like all of these folks that we work with, but they are so focused in the work and so passionate about what they do.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And that's uh that's beautiful to see. Now, what's one piece of advice you'd give to a chef who's starting out their career just like you did when you went out on that limb and you went into, you know, in a different country with no network, but you know, potentially just got that that starge that he wanted. You just got in. What's one piece of advice you'd give him or her or they them?

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Embrace discomfort to get get used to being uncomfortable. I think it was the best thing that I ever learned was that you know, welcome being completely on the edge of your capacity. It's a vocational job, and I think there are ways of learning that could provide you with a life, you know, and you can be a good chef. But if you if you really want this, you have to thread the line and chase it almost.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And how'd you stay so focused? Like what how would you tell them to stay focused?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Don't neglect your mental health. That was the most important bit, you know. I think I was lucky enough to have a mother and a family that was very supportive of my pursuit, but also that were consistently reminding me to center, you know. So it's silly things that we take for granted, like breathing. You know, you cannot survive a challenge like this without finding center. And I think that's that's the one thing we try to empower our staff now to realize that no matter the the thickness of the challenge there, that you can muster through if you find your center. Wow. And for me, that was it was crazy. Like the amount of time that I spend um focusing in me, you know, like developing the skill to deal with the challenge. Well, what's one little technique? Breathing. Just breathing. It's really like how many breaths do we take a day, and how many of those breaths are actual intended, you know, conscious. I think people struggle a lot. The chef's worst nightmare, any aspiring chef's worst night worst nightmare. And I'd say any chef's worst nightmare is the state of anxiety and fear about the amount of stuff they have to do or these looming deadlines you have to achieve and the standards that are super high, right? Anxiety is a big thing in the kitchen. Breath has the capacity to just bring you to the moment, right? Anxiety is a thing of a future, but the present is where you cook. And so if you remember to be present, you can taste better, you can season better, you pay attention to what you do. And so when you're holding that onion, you're actually holding the onion. When you put the timer for three minutes, you know the timer's gonna ring before it rings, you know, and all of those levels of engagement come from presence. And you you can't really be present if you're not here. Breath helps a lot. So taking intended breaths, that was really helpful. Remember to pee and drink water, stupid stuff that we forget, you know. Yeah, and I think the skill, in a way, teaches itself. Uh, and as an aspiring chef, you'd be obsessed about filleting fish. Can I do it? Right? Will I ever know how to put a dish together? All of those things I wouldn't obsess about. Just go through the mincer of work and don't forget yourself in the process, and you come out fine. And it's true every single time. I've seen like incredible transformations with my own team of folk that have arrived without knowing how to tie their shoes, you know. And they come out the other end just by remembering those things.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And how did you navigate or you know, how do you navigate the challenge of knowing when to move on?

SPEAKER_02 25:23

That's a tricky one. Um, I I'll quote my granddad here. When you think you need to go, stay for a little while longer. Um, because a lot of the time I think most of the reason why chefs leave work uh for another job or abandon the career are personal, interpersonal issues. They're not related to the food, they're rarely related to the work, they're a lot more related to the people you work with and the environment in that space. And so I had a an interesting conversation with my grandfather when I was about to leave a job, and he's like, just stay a little longer and try to understand why you want to go. And if you want to leave because the job's giving you everything that it could, you should. But if you're a bit bummed about an interaction, resolve it. And I ended up staying at that job for two years and I grew further, and that was the duck. You know, I got a promotion that got me into the lab that taught me a bunch of stuff that I didn't know, and I was gonna bounce before it's simply because of interpersonal issues that I managed to summon a resolution because I engaged. I I frankly speaking, the duck was a restaurant that was relatively more easy to do that than a lot of restaurants, but I would still say give it a go. Well, yeah, give it a go. Give it a go. You kind of have to. So much, like we rather just take it and leave, right? We rarely iron out our issues. But it's all like a teamwork in the kitchen is essential and the vibe is like crucial, right? If you work in a space that has a shitty environment, who wants to spend 16-hour days, 14-hour days doing something like this? At the time, that's what we were working at. And so finding ways to resolve that issue and connecting with community, which is a word we we've used earlier on when we were on off, uh, that was important and it was great advice.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

That's amazing. It's so, you know, so powerful to see that having someone in your corner like that to be able to reach out to. And that that's part, to be honest, why I started the dojo. I have a lot of friends in the industry that struggled during the pandemic and their closest networks didn't quite understand the kitchen. So I thought if I could build a platform in a community that would be able to help each other with no competition, with war all walls down, everyone vulnerable, you'd be able to turn up once a week, talk about your shit, talk about your problems, whether it's business, whether it's personal, so you don't have to run away like that and learn how to deal with those issues. You know, and that that that's what was a key driver for me to start the hospital dojo. And and truth be told, it's it's right there. You you extended from your your almost second year to another four years on, and you learn amazing things, yeah. Just by figuring it out, by not running away. Because the minute you run away from a problem, you you don't know how to combat it.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah. I think it's a plague in the industry, and I think we also use work to hide, right? But it's one of the biggest issues of of the hospital industry is is that chefs are just recluse, cave dwellers.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I guess I guess I guess I guess chefs have a well that that's it comes as an artist. An artist is an introvert.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, you have to see the world in a very specific way.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Very in the way that you want to see it. Yeah. To be honest. And there's certain things that we don't want to accept. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's it's very common. Um, yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

That's you hit the nail on the head there, if I I this uh this idea of talking is uh key. And I think the only way we're gonna navigate um a path forward, I think, in the industry that does not compromise creativity and quality is figuring out ways to develop interpersonal communication at work, mindfulness at work. Things like this are incredibly special and important. And I think before it was through violence that we managed to we managed to commend that level of attention and discipline. Yeah, I think now you can do that differently without having to compromise bits and and cheat your way through it.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I think the word of the word of uh this era is empathy. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. Being empathetic, you know, just remembering that there's another human on the other side. Yeah, yeah. That there are another being and it is another person. So being empathetic is very important in anything you do. Yes, you gotta have your game face on when you're working, but man, at the end of the day, it's a human. Yeah, you know, yeah. I so I guess for you after after that that amazing experience, you moved on, and then you went to Singapore after that, or what'd you do?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah, I I went to Singapore after the day. Why Singapore? It kind of called me. I had a friend whose family members were opening a restaurant group, and I joined as the executive chef, and we opened a restaurant called Bacchanalia, which was a mammoth of a space.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

And then we decided to shrink Bacchanalia down into what became the uh Michelin star Bacchanalia restaurant, it's a 26-eater. Uh and the original restaurant became a private members' club called Madison Rooms. Eventually I left the company and opened Uri. For me, when I went on that path to open my first restaurant together with my lovely business partner, Lolik Peng, um everything kind of changed again. It was like a pivotal moment there. I think Bakanali was important for me to learn that I could do it. I had never held an executive role like this. I'd never been in control of so many elements. And I really wanted to know if I was if I had it, you know, it was a challenge. And figuring that out and then eventually applying all of that at Nuri was was key. So I opened Nuri maybe seven years ago with this focus of opening a rational that was um really all about using food as a metaphor for human interaction, uh, and so that people didn't confuse us for hippies to throw research at the problem. Essentially, we cook food that is about the points of intersection between communities, between cultures, between humans. So there's a side of it that's kind of scientific where we study our shared appreciation for umami, sweet and sour, crunch, things that are very much latent in our bodies, right? That every human has. Uh, and also the historical, anthropological side of things, everything we exchange over the years. Um, you know, why is pizza pizza? Why is pasta pasta? All these things that represent specific communities have so many other histories kind of intertwined, right? And I felt if we could highlight those connections to people through the food, that maybe we could remind them of how closely knitted they are to each other. And so we opened a re with a it was wild. I didn't open a hundred-seater, you know, it was uh another 30-seater restaurant, and we we knew what we were getting into, um, matching the proposition to the size and and the vibe of a place. But uh, I love my restaurant and I love what I do. It's a I love it too.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

It's a beautiful place. I stumbled upon the venue. I don't know if you know, but I was walking to a hawker center that I couldn't find, and I thought your place was a Japanese restaurant. Yeah. Truth be told, I walked in, I looked at the name, I said, I've heard of this, but it still didn't click. And I was super casual, and I walked in, I said, Do we have a table for two? A lovely gentleman sat us at the bar. I said, This is great. Looks I thought it was Japanese, to be honest, when I first walked in. I think Nori, I don't know why. Um, maybe I thought Nori instead of Nori, right? Assumptions, and my wife's like, what are we doing? This place looks nice, we're casual. I said, It's New Year's Eve. Let's just wherever we are, let's just sit down. So we sit down, and then you know, straight away we get given a beverage, not even a it wasn't even water, something just came to the table without a menu. And I was like, Oh, we're committed, we're here. Like, there's no turning back. Whether I look at the menu and I don't like it, no, there's no turning back after this here. It was just so hospitable when I walked in. And then just to be able to talk, you had a young pastry chef who's been there for I think it was like three or four months, and he was literally sitting in front of me. Yeah, young, yeah, and he was just tying up this beautiful little cube-looking thing in like craft paper and then string, and just like individually wrapping each piece and placing it so perfectly, and it was talking to me about the restaurant and what you guys do, and the rest was history. I remember the one standout dish for me was your okra, yeah, because it reminded me of my grandma's cooking.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Yeah, you know, the amount of people that leave their restaurant saying it reminds them of their grandma's cooking is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

That one dish just gave me nostalgia to uh my late step-grandmother, to be honest, and uh she used to live with us in our house. Um my grandfather moved here, moved my dad. Got my grandfather here back in like 20, it was like 2009, 2010, and he brought my stepgrandma with her, and we just sat there and we she would make this okra dish, and then I haven't tried anything since until I sat in your place. So since then I was like, this is like this guy knows his stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yeah, we're trying to cook that.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

So, like if you're trying a different flavor, you're like, this is what it would taste like at its purest origin, potentially, you know. So the so Nori, the concept uh behind it, and you which is which is which is phenomenal. How did you manage to secure a business partner in a different city where you weren't known?

SPEAKER_02 36:23

I think over the years through Bacanalia, I developed a reputation. Um he came to eat a couple of times at the restaurant, and uh eventually I was actually moving back to Brazil. It was already a few months uh after I had resigned that uh he just reached out and said, Hey, I have a space if you're looking for a venue in Singapore and you want to open your own restaurant, you should come on board. And I said yes. It was very much, I think, a chance for both of us. Um, and it was wonderful as well, because I had a clean slate and I had the opportunity to really just sit through it and build it from scratch. I did everything in the place, but all of it. Um, and the design process of the kitchen, figuring out how open I wanted the space to be, because it's a very unusual setup, right? The diners are inside the kitchen, it's not an open kitchen in the traditional sense where you have a like a counter that separates people that you are literally eating, and there's a dude like sauting some stuff just beside you. And and I wanted all of that to also tie into the original concept of bringing people close, right? And so the lack of uniform, the open kitchen design, the space being welcoming for people to interact and exchange things across tables, it was all very human.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Um, yeah, the space felt too welcoming for me to leave. Yeah, yeah. I felt like I was in someone's home. That was that's that's it. That's that's what I literally felt. Like I walked in there, I said, I I can't leave this place without eating you, like no matter what, you know? And just um how important was uh, you know, I'm sure you had some professionals along the way to help you with the space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Um, do you remember anyone that was really I think our designer, Akira Akita, uh, really helped a lot. You know, he was able to translate. Um I I was very experimental with the approach and he took that and ran with it. Um I think there's a lot of value in that. Um, but also we were opening an experimental space, right? If I was opening a hundred-seater restaurant, I wouldn't have done it this way. There's no chance. And so you have to, yeah. You also have to know what you're getting into, right? I think the moment that things don't work in the direction of your pursuit, it's pointless. And so if you're opening a space that is a high turnover, don't faff about. Get people that have done spaces that are high turnover, seek the right advice with kitchen manufacturers, visit people who build spaces so you know what they're about. All of that will make you make good decisions about what you put through. Um, but in the context of a small 20-seater where you have the opportunity to just tinker things to your liking, and and uh those are managed risks. I think you can you can give yourself a little bit of freedom. It's more of a controlled environment, I guess. It is. One thing I've learned though is never to build a space on paper. You know, once you have the space, build it according to what you have. From a cost management standpoint, the first restaurant I've ever built, I dreamt the ideal kitchen flow and kitchen space, and it cost me 2x. Uh, the second ration I built, I built the ideal space according to what existed there, where the power supply was, where the water was, and I didn't have to move things about too much. The ration gained a really quirky kind of setup that just worked, you know. I used what was there instead of just trying to open everything up and start from scratch. And and because of it, it was efficient from uh from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Sort of forces us as consultants to make things work. You see, um, when we work with an open playing field, it's it's great, but at the same time, we put best practice into place. But best practice doesn't always mean how the operator operates, yeah. And I guess when you constrain someone, it's like it's like a diamond in the row. You force them to work better, yeah, and you force a consultant to think better, yeah. So when I design kitchens, it's what I do. I I love optimizing spaces. It's so it's a fun, it's a fun exercise. It's a fun exercise, yeah, and it really challenges you because you're like, you know, how are you gonna produce X amount of food and X amount of time in this awkward, tight spot? What can we do to make it efficient? How? You know, that's the thought process in my head. What's the repercussions? Whatever goes out must come back in. That's how I think. In most cases, in 80% of cases, right? You need it if you're if you're sending food out on plates, it's got to get washed.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

So if my cook line's this big, then what's my where's my are we doing pans? Like what people don't understand is when we're when we're designing kitchens, your menu needs to be engineered. Yeah, you have to have a good idea of what you're gonna send. You have to have a good idea. Like, we're not telling you to tell me the exact dishes, but I need to know, you know, how you're gonna engineer your menu and in what context is your ladder versus your your hot section and your desserts and what you're aiming to achieve. Yeah, but you work within those boundaries, yeah. And then as a consultant, we go, okay, well, I know that, you know, I know that this appliance will work correct in this environment because he can utilize it multiple times. It's not, you know, if somebody says I'm just gonna open an Italian restaurant, well, what type of Italian? Are you doing a pasta bar? Because then that's a lot of pans, right? Or we're doing, you know what I mean? So it's it's it's like that's one thing that people mismatch is they think that we'll design the kitchen, then we'll work about the menu later. But if you're opening any venue, you need to have your menu somewhat engineered.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah. A few people uh equate out of lack of connection with the project, spending money with good products, you know, good design. Yep. And and I I remember working at the duck in a kitchen that was incredibly small and just grew on itself organically based on what there was there, you know, like things that were no longer working became storage spaces. I'm not saying people should open a restaurant like this. But I I realized after also working and having the opportunity to see other mates' kitchens, you know, that are overly engineered and spacious and luxurious, how difficult it is to get things done, you know, how much work people have to do to move from one place to the next to get things, you know, and it's not ergonomic. No, and so I I prefer also smaller spaces, but mostly chefs want a big space to have all of the stuff they need. But realistically, I think a small kitchen is way more efficient. It's easier for you to get the food to the quality you want and the temperature that you want to get to the guest as fast as possible. And so I I prefer smaller spaces that are engineered based on the space itself, you know. And the Russian then gets a character that's very unique and specific to the space.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

As a restaurateur, as chef, chef restaurateur. I'd like to you can own that title. Because you've you've built an institution. What's one piece of advice you'd give to somebody who's looking to open their own venue?

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Don't. Ah, come on. Don't say that. No, I'd say don't. And say I say don't. And if you can't eat and sleep after having made the decision to not do it, maybe you should do it. But don't go on a whim and just open it. Like this is really you, it's a mix of love and pain, and all of those bits together build something that's very tremendously human and absolutely significant. And the moment restaurants are just a for-profit business, the industry suffers tremendously, you know. And so, and I I say this respectfully. I don't want to shatter anyone's dreams, but um wait to listen to you. I think there's so many restaurants that open because people just thought it would be a great idea. They love food, and so let's just go for it and uh spend the money and go through the process without realizing that every day that you're operating a business like this, you really have to want to be there. That you want to have to serve people food. They're gonna put that stuff in their mouths and go home. And if there's a disconnect between intent and what you're doing, then uh even if a Russian makes money, I think the attrition ends up not being positive for anybody involved, you know. I think there is a level of wholesomeness that comes from this business when you really want to do this. Uh, and I think profit comes just as a result of those things. You have to engineer it properly and you have to make it uh sustainable, but don't open it on a whim. Really, like this is a calling you can't put back, then maybe you should do it. I I've been doing this for all of my adult life, and there's not one day that I don't get into a kitchen that I'm not surprised by something I've never seen before. And if this is not an exciting job, I don't know what else is, but you have to be prepared for that because constancy makes a restaurant successful, but a restroom life is everything but constant, it's the most inconstant thing you could ever appreciate.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

It's a lifestyle, it's a it's a you embrace yourself in that life, yeah. Avan, last question for you before we wrap up. What was your biggest financial failure?

SPEAKER_02 46:38

I think not understanding the importance that the guest eating has to your success, you know. I thought after having trained with all of these amazing people, that the work was a one-direction vector, you know. We cook you eat. Yeah. You pay. Yeah, and chefs, this is how chef wants, you know, like that kind of level of dynamic. And as I grow older, I'm starting to realize that a dish is never complete until the guest eats it. And it's almost a 50-50 endeavor, you know, that the success of the entire dynamic happens really on the other side of the conversation there. And so the guest is kind of building the restaurant with you. And if you're not cooking with that in mind, uh, no matter how expressive you are, or no matter how um conservative you are, no matter what you decide to do with the food, you're really just gonna shoot duds all the time. So I learned that the hard way, the beginning was very tough because we were so enthused about what we were doing that we wanted everybody to be just as enthused as we are. And the reality is you need to speak the same language as your guest. And that's a difficult conversation. Everybody speaks different languages when it's about food, right? So it made us better cooks. Now I think we got that universal uh taste, you know. Like we, it's funny. Everybody when I was training would say, don't cook to please everyone, right? That's something that chefs grow up learning. But the reality is, I think we all are after very similar things. We we just haven't figured out that code. And I think as we get older in this business, we learn that. We learn certain universals. Uh yeah. So I guess it's about being approachable. You kind of have to, at all levels, right? You have to be able to like it's not, I'm not saying don't be creative. And I think that's one of the worst things that can happen to any dining scene is an incredibly conservative dining scene, right? Russians that kind of essentially turn the same consistently in beautiful venues that also look similar, right? Uh, that open for similar hours, that have similar wine programs, eventually, like it's just the same, right? So I'm not saying that that's the way forward. I think you can still afford to be creative and to be unique, but you can't do that to the detriment of who's eating.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

What's one technique you have to learn off your customer?

SPEAKER_02 49:23

You need to connect. And it's funny, like in this attempt to open a restaurant that was all about connection, I wasn't. And so connecting there is key. Like you have to really make an effort, reaching out, speaking, listening, understanding where you're going wrong. Something could be perfect in your mind and it's just not connecting with who you're serving the food to. It doesn't make what you're doing wrong, but you're using perhaps the wrong language. And I think food's all about language. You you need to really adapt what you're trying to say to a language that people can understand. Uh, if you're cooking for chefs, you're speaking one language. If you're cooking for regular folk, you're speaking another. And I think people that learn to do both well are incredible.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Yeah, you're right on that note. Like I feel, and this is just me being a hospitality professional. When I walk into a venue and, you know, I lock eyes with the chef, and the chef knows who I am or whatever, the front of a house guest, your your experience is automatically elevated. The food's not changed, but it's just because we communicate the same way. So they're their their form of communication and what their perfect world is is my understanding. Yeah. So we're communicating. So you know, and they get a thrill on that because it's like a sense of comfort. It's like, oh my god, you're coming. You know, like you, you, you're coming to dine, great, you know, and then they they just be they just be themselves, I guess. They don't put this, they don't try to re-communicate it in a different channel, right? And I could see that like now now that you've pointed it out, I understand why my dining experience sometimes may be different to others. Not because I get any other different treatments, just the communication and the understanding. And you see the ones that the venues that do well are the ones that can translate through to through to different people. And you know, there's there's one important thing that I always say to any of my clients somebody's dining in your venue besides hospitals, I say this besides hospitals, guys, and girls, um they're either celebrating or they're escaping. If they're coming to you to dine, just not read the room, but just be aware that these people uh they could be eating at home, but they're leaving their environment. So it's either they're going out for something special, or they're escaping their normality. You know, and I I used to find that when I used to work behind a coffee machine.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah. Well, these are the last social spaces we have, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

The restaurant, a coffee shop, a bar. Like a cafe is like, you know, the people would would literally, you know, in Sydney, we have such a strong coffee culture that a lot of baristas, if they spot you, they're making your coffee. Like if you're four or five people deep and you're a regular, I'm already got your shop ready. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

I witnessed that this morning.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Your coffee's made before you even pay.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Yeah. Here's here's a a thought that came as you were saying this. That a restaurant isn't about food, and a coffee shop isn't about coffee. These are all about people. These businesses are all primarily about people and people through food, and people through coffee, and people through drinks. But these are all uh first and foremost about people. The people that make it and the people that consume it need it, and the people that share it, but they're all very human spaces. You know, uh I think it's important to remember those bits. Sometimes the optics get gets weird, and you can have perfect meals that add absolutely no value to your life or the life of the people who are dining. And I think that's generally because the order is reversed, you know. That first and foremost, the restaurant is a people-to-people business. It's about humans. If we prioritize that, we'll forever be making the right choices when we build kitchens, when we train staff, when we serve food, when we write menus, and I think remembering that's key. You build ergonomically, right? Uh you price it accurately. And and um, I think that that part's important to remember. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Evan, it's a blessing to have you in this space. Rock and roll. You're amazing. You're a you're a legend. If anybody's in Singapore or visiting Singapore, thinking about visiting Singapore or dreaming of Singapore, remember Restaurant Nori. I promise you, if you go there, you will never forget it. Thank you. Because I haven't. And thank you, Ivan. And uh, is there any final things you'd like to say?

SPEAKER_02 54:30

No, you nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

No, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Thank you.