SPEAKER_02 0:08

Gents, welcome to the Hospital Dojo podcast. I've got Matteo and Danieli. Thank you. Thanks. Two of the best pizza chefs here in Australia. Thank you. I'm blessed with your presence. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Pleasure is mine.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

It's uh it's it's very uh uncommon to have you know two of the best guys in the industry in pizza sitting next to each other. Of course. Right? Especially on a night off, right? We're lucky. Exactly. We're lucky. Danielle, first of all, to you, yeah, congratulations on your latest award.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thank you, thank you. How did it feel to get in the top 50? For me to get into 50 top was like, even though it was for Asia Pacific, it was a big deal for me. You know, it was like it was a big thing, yeah, big thing, exactly. So um, you know, we're we're in it two times um uh last year and this year. Um, so for me it's been that's the biggest thing for me in pizza right now that I've I've had.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

And Matteo, to see you grow, I've watched your career in Sydney move forward, and to see you now partner with one of the best Italian food groups. What's it like partnering with someone like Federico?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Well, man, for me it's such a big opportunity, and I really believe that Fed is a truly born leader. The way he does, what he always saying to me is like lead by example. Federico nowadays go a lot of venues and very successful, but man, I'm telling you, he's still hustling every day, like it's his first day, his first week of work. And that gives me the motivation to go ahead. I remember still the first time that we started talking, it was last year around the Haggus. I left the previous spot where I was working and I received a lot of offers. But everybody was sort of like promising meal the heaven, these that, and I wasn't already because I'm not a mercenary, like when I work somewhere, I stay there, even in Italy, like five years, six years. I need to make a place mine at the end, making the dough, the pizza represent myself, my vision. So even though I'm not the owner, I'll be there constantly. I don't check the hours and stuff. So Federico was the first one saying to me, like, I don't know you, you don't know me. Maybe I already knew him for what he did. But at the same time, he said, let's start to work together and see how we work together. He already was planning to open his new pizza concept. Actually, now I'm a business partner, business partner in. I could be one of the owners within. And after these talking, like every like twice a week, we used to do breakfast, try to get to know each other, talking about projects and stuff. This occasional buy a boy a boy a pizzeria came up. It was like, oh, let's let's do this, let's try it. This is the best way we can try. Let's start as a pop-up. Let's open the doors, let's bring a good pizza to the other side of the bridge. Let's see what's gonna happen. Let's like let all these people know what is a good quality pizza. Do whatever you want. He literally got he followed me up like for the first month, especially also with his wife. She was there every day, Michela. She's at the door, like managing like table plan, everything, supporting, looking, because also Federico first goes back to Lumi. So he's super busy. So, like trusting me, giving me like all the power to do whatever it was there to do, and honestly, I took a spot like it was mine. And them and seeing the people happy, their response, all things growing, us growing as a team, man. It was beautiful, it was a dream, it was what I was wishing for. Like a mentor, somehow, someone like to make me, I want to do it. Why this guy is still hustling, even though he's where he sit. And that's what I am. Man, I I can work seven on seven. For me, it's normal. Like, yeah, I don't check. I first prioritize the boys in the team, make sure they get the rest. For me, there's no rest. I take from me every day work, like I'm training. When you train, you want to be better. For me, I'm there, not just working. I'm there like 100%. I want to improve, you know what I mean? Of course. Like changing the door. You know what I'm talking about? You can there's always space to improve, to improve, to be better, to be more practical. Sometimes you need to drop to make sure your collaborators are able to follow up.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

This is like also things to consider, especially in Sidney, there's no many pizza chef like in Italy there is one every corner, guys. Yeah, here, like we we need to work hard. And I think Daniel knows what I'm talking about. Yeah. This guy, I went to his shop, also been following him for years. Is there smashing every night? And I know what that means, guys. It's physical, it's mental, it's everything. To keep up the pressure, the customers, making the numbers going properly. There is a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

What's it like to operate? Like you said, Frederico's wife was present. So that transition of you having a supportive partnership, how important is that to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

I think it's fundamental. Man, the like the daily that you face is as I said before, it's not easy. It can be like a shortage of stuff, it can be a lot of work to do, can be stressful in in any aspect. And trust me, in a restaurant, each one has his own duty, but at the end, it's all together. And for me, finding myself in a team that wants to elevate me, that wants me just to be there. Like even when we got a good food guy, Terry Dura, come in. Like Federico ring me, man, they're gonna come in. You're gonna show up your face. You're gonna go to the table. For me, it was like, wow, this is a massive opportunity. This is a space he's giving me. And I will never disappoint him. I'll do my best ever to make sure he's happy. He's happy as he as he is giving me this opportunity. I'll be there to make sure I won't disappoint him.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

And it's important to partner with people that you know have strengths that you don't have, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Of course, man. Federico, what he says as well is like, okay, if we do burgers, we do piadina, we do pizza, we do pasta, is always like a mission start mentality for me. The free just look like a pharmacy.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Because if he comes there, something is a little for me, it's also a little bit hard. Like, I'm pushing myself to keep up at the high standard. What he says to me, like an example, the boys doing the order. Let them collect the orders, they give it to you. What are you doing? You go back into the hurum, you check everything. You need to check the cost. That's your budget, not their budget. They don't know, they're tired. They're gonna write it down, don't trust them. They're your friends, but they're not, you know, like he's been he's been a great mentor.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Man, crazy. Teaching you about business.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

And what I want to tell you, he also knows about pizza, about all like the the the accordingly, like reaction, chemical reaction that there is. He knows he's very on pizzeria and he's in his backyard. You go to Balloriani over the first time I made pizza for him, I was invited to his house. Yeah, and I actually back then it was like months without make pizza because I went to Italy. Then I left my job because I was not up there, and I was like, I don't want to work. I was just boxing, sauna, training. My friend, no, no, no, I can do a couple shifts, man. No, full time, I don't care. I literally still like four months.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

They just played like a gypsy.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Man, no, no, it's gypsy. I was still still relaxing with my friends, having fun, relaxing under the sun, eating dinners with my girlfriend. I was always super relaxed, but then I went there, I saw the pizza. I think they saw my expression, was look like a kid in a candy stove. After like after like months without making the door for me, I still remember like 10 liters, my shit single speed. Yeah, single speed. I was so happy, excited. Pizza for everyone, and and then from there it was very easy.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Daniel, yeah. You where'd you start your pizza career?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So pizza for me was uh a job, a second job just for extra money. So when I started to make pizza, pizza's not my mother, my not my mother's food because I'm Lebanese, so I'm not Italian. So for me, it was even harder to get to the level I'm at today. So when I started, it was purely for money. So um I was just working in a in a pizzeria, and it was just like, you know, the old school Italian pizzeria where they put it on a tray and then they cook it, and it's like a lot of topping and a lot of cheese, and it's like, you know, you put cook this thing, it looks the same, and you send it out. Um and then um I sort of found like I wanted to be a pizza maker. So I was looking around for a shop. Um, and then Gigi's came up. It was went through four or five owners. The same spot? This is the same, well, we moved it, but when I took it over, it was in the same spot. Um we took a rundown restaurant. We my father and I um took it together. He's still my partner today. How many years has it been? It's been um 14 years. I met his father, it's alleged. It's like the the restaurant's like it's like you know, it's like my father, we have dinner, it's like a bit more of a lifestyle. It's like, you know, it's not you know, we just love it. It's like my father there, and it's like we work together, it's just you know, we argue a little bit, but we're friends at the end of the night. But anyway, like we I started to make pizza in this place, and um, you know, I did the first five years and it just never really took off. It was just like this normal pizza place, you know. And then um after that I hired an Italian guy called Antonio. When he worked with me, he said to me, Why don't you change a pizza? And I always looked at Napolitan pizza and looked at it, and I'm like, fuck, I love this pizza, but I don't know how to do it, and I don't know if I should change it. So you your pizza before was like traditional, it was just like the nausea, like Australian ice pizza. Italian pizza, yeah, you know, lots of topping, lots of cheese, conveyor oven, supreme pizza. Supreme pizza, meat lovers, meat lovers, yeah. Send it out, it was it looked the same all the time. Yeah, and then this guy goes, Look, I'm gonna introduce you to all the best guys in the world. So he put he tagged me and then I added every single one. Raf Bonetta. Oh man, he's the king. Raf Bonetta for me, man. I started to add all these guys, and then I started to look at pizza differently. It changed my whole look on pizza. Well, and then at that point, it was like I need to change. So imagine me changing from that to that. It's big. So you're talking about we're talking about making X amount, dropping $8,000 a week when we did the change. Because when we did the change, customers are pissed off. Customers were unhappy.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah, because I think I think it's one of the most difficult things is once you disappoint customers, they're used to it.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah, it's a it's a different mind, it's a different money.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So means this guy anyone.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Anyone's advice who wants to change the journey is different. The journey is gonna change. You need to work to get to the level you want to be, and you need to believe in yourself to get to that level. And when I did the change, I wasn't a good pizza maker. I changed, and the pizza was terrible. I served this pizza for many years, I lost a lot of business. Um'd you stay afloat? What the fuck did you do? I paid myself $500 a week. Fuck. For many years. But I believed in myself. I wanted what I want today, I wanted what I have today, so I kept on this journey, pushing, pushing, pushing. And anyone who's worked with me knows how Daniel works. It's like, it's like clockwork. I work around the clock. If I need to get something done, I'll get it done like 2, 3, 4 a.m. I don't care. There's no there's no compromising. For me to get to the level that I got to today to understand how dough works, how pizza works, and how it reacts in the oven and how all that stuff, it was like a it was like a 10-year process. And you fucking educated yourself in your own eye. So basically, I got tagged with the best guys in the world. I had a look at what they do, then I started to put puzzles together, experiment, throw stuff in the bin, do this, turn the oven on, try this pizza, try that pizza. We're talking about a 10-year process. Yeah. We're talking about a 10-year process here. We're not talking like a you know, people found like Daniel Gigi's like overnight, but this was not overnight. This was 10 years in the making to be able to hydrate a flour, push a flour, control a flour, control the dough, uh, adjust it to the oven and and know how to adjust hydration to cooking.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

So this Antonio guy that was with you? Yes. How long did he stay with you? He stayed with me for one year. So this guy just came in.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

He came in. Brain fucked you. He brain fucked me, showed me the showed me what I wanted long time ago that I couldn't do, and said to me, Good luck. Here's a few things. Start. So we started from there. Do you still keep in contact with him? Yeah, of course. All the time. All the time. Where is he now? All the time. He's in Florence. Wow. In Italy, in Florence. Um beautiful place. He's a pizza maker. And um, yeah, so you know, that's my pizza journey. It's like a girlfriend that never gets old. Because it's like, even though I've been doing it for 10 years, the reactions are still changing. They're still never the same. So once you come to the oven every single night, and you put the first or second pizza in and you stand and look at the oven, it's like you're seeing slight different variations because, you know, weather, humidity, all that sort of stuff. So, you know, it's like that's the journey, you know, that's the journey of the pizza for me. That's that's unreal.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yeah. That's unbelievable. And Mateo, this question's for you. Where are you from in Italy?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

I'm from Lampedusa. Whereabouts is that? A little island around Sicily. Okay, so near Malta, yeah, super south. Last far, last far of Italy. After us, there is Africa.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

What's your definition of a great pizza?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

A definition of a great pizza in one sentence. A dough well executed very well, there is able to cook properly.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

For you, Daniel. That's that's a rough question for me, but I'm gonna answer this. I don't discriminate on any style of pizza. But if you make the dough and cook it in the right way, of the style, I give 10 points to any style of pizza. Makes sense. Any style. It doesn't have to be contemporaneous, it doesn't have to be uh make it classic, it doesn't have to be New York.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

If you do it properly, it's good, it's fucking good. Yeah. The oven is the last stage. If the dough it's made properly, you have your time frame, but you want to your dough to perform.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

So you've both have both of stipulated.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I want to explain this easily. Yeah, go for it. Okay. What's the difference between someone who's baking the bread and a pizza chef? Okay. I bake the bread, I woke up at 4 a.m., I have all the preferments, everything done. I fill up the display, you come to buy the bread, Gigi get the bread, Ben get the bread, everybody gets the bread. There is 10 pieces left over, maybe I give to Charlie, I give it to the poor people on the street. Yeah. What about the pizza check musica? Yeah. What about the pizza chef? The pizza chef prepares dough balls, which for me are my bullets. Right? I prepare 100. Yeah. And tonight I sell 60. What do I do with the other 40? If I didn't put them in the fridge before, if the digestion is high, so all the process is going ahead very quickly. What we do? We give it tomorrow, we serve another pizza. It's a live product. Because that pizza went ahead. What do you do in that case? There's techniques that you can use. Or maybe you see that the nights is going slowly, so you stop. You change the temperature of the dough a little bit earlier, so you put in the fish a little bit earlier. Or maybe one thing that I love to do is to use the dough bowl as my preferment the day next. Exactly. So what do you do? You check the stage of the pizza. You calculate how much water, how much flour you have in each single dough. You add 20, 30, 40, 60% of fresh flour. You bring it back in life, feeding these dough that's already going ahead.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Pull back, pull back, pull back, pull back. A lot of people don't understand pizza dough. Okay. You're talking, you're talking to someone.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Let's say, okay, to have a good pizza, just aim your time frame.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

And you can't go over.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

So, so you know, there's different types of flour in the market, which we're not going to get into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

So I'm going to to answer your question in short.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Every pizza style is fantastic when executed properly. I agree. As long as you handle it in the right way and execute the cooking. When I mean cooking, oven temperature adjusted to hydration of what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

And I think you can execute a fantastic pizza in any style. I agree, man. Any style. I don't discriminate on styles.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

And the different flours that are available are designed for different pizzas that you can use, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah. So with flour, as um Mateo knows, the there's different strengths and proteins. Yeah. Um, they can be hydrated, some more, some less. Obviously, there's tricks to hydrate to push a flour. What's the definition of hydration? Hydration means the um amount of water against a thousand a kilo of flour. So if it's a kilo of flour and you want to do 90%, you add 900 and of water to the thousand kilo.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

And this is it would be a 90%.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

That's a 90% hydration. You always work on the flour, which is their main thing. So it's baker's, it's called baker's percentages. So everything's worked against the flour.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

And what would you recommend somebody that wants to, you know, just say there's a lot of people in hospitality that watch watch our stuff.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

If somebody wants to learn pizza, sure. What's the best way to learn it?

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I think he's going to work for someone. I I did like for me, it was a little bit different because I start with my dad, whatever, but I I'll go and work for someone even free of charge in the beginning. I know it's difficult and sounds crazy, but you gotta sort of steal, like watching and still, still in a good way, of course.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

So do a starge. Use stage.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, that's pretty much go there. Like usually you start from chopping the fjord di latte, which is the mozzarella. But it's a process. You're gonna be in the environment with the people, be helpful, moving, be clean, see what the guy's doing, support, be always in time, and then at one point try to be independent once they're giving you the task to do. Because that's it's helpful. Because if I know that you look after the day, you cut the prola, the mozzarella, I know you're doing it. That's good. Then tomorrow, once you get used to it, used to it, maybe I move you to a different section. Yeah, trying to stretch in the doors, lolly's low in the white tonight. I will give if it's a wood fire oven, I will give it to last.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

You leave the you leave the oven till last. And what about you then?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

So, my advice are you are we talking a restaurant owner, or are we talking just a guy or somebody that wants to open a restaurant?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Okay, if somebody wants imagine, I'm saying a guy that needs to learn pizza, regardless of the fact. We'll talk about opening a venue later. Okay. Somebody uh a person that wants to learn how to make pizza. Okay, what I'm saying commercially, though. I'm not saying for a home use, I'm saying go watch some music. Commercially, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

All right, my advice is Mateo's advice is fantastic. So you do a hands-on, yeah, go to a pizzeria, do a bit of hands-on, like you said, cut the mozzarella, make the sauce. If you come to my pizzeria, I don't really get you on the dough unless you've worked with me for years and years and years. So for me, the dough is a big thing. It's a big, it's it's it's like my child. It's like it's like a child for us that we don't give out.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

But how about how about if somebody wants to learn how to basically like how do you you know you fucked around for 10 years, you obviously learned because of your dad.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

I got a bit of advice. Yes. You go do the hands-on, like Mateo said, at a pizzeria. There's courses around that you can pay on Instagram. There's some good people that give good courses. That's true. And if you want to learn pizza properly, I do advise you to do a few courses from the good guys.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Well, so these like be that that's that's a good point. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

If you want to be a good pizza show.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I I agree, I agree, because uh like most like usually people go on the practical part, which is important. But you need the theory at one point. But I'd suggest the ensign, you might not like ensign, I mean the be in the environment, because to make sure that you like it.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, because it's not easy. And the beauty about it is everyone has a specific pizza they want to make in their brain. Like, yeah, you might like that, and you got your vision. You want it. So you find the guy that's teaching that style and you take the course. And it doesn't hurt to pay for the course. I mean, the guy's gonna teach you, you're gonna get the theory down, you're gonna have a recipe to start with, yeah, and then you change it to make your own recipe in the future. It's so it's important it's important to create your own style, right? You have to create your own course studio.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Like an example for me, I I started at one point, now like I'm using four different types of flop. Yeah, I mix it up. I want the mix. I don't use double zero anymore. For me, double zero, I don't want it anymore. It's plain. It's like it's like you can buy Molina type of one and more nutrients from my yeast.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Make him Because he wants to make his own flavour. Yeah. So if so if you go, if you if you want to open a pizza shop, this is a typical example. I was in Bali like a month ago. I went to three pizza shops. The pizza tasted exactly the same as the other shop. I had three pizzas. They tasted all the same. There's a reason behind it. There must be one flour that they're all using. Yeah, they I have friends and they it's very hard to get the same consultant. So yeah, like the same way and the same flour. So you're not gonna set yourself apart from the rest. Someone like Mateo and myself, we're mixing our own blends of flowers. Doesn't matter what brand you're using, he's using Molino Casilla, which is amazing. I'm using Caputo, which I love. I mean, you we're mixing all their flowers, and that way you're creating your own flavour, your own you're giving the table your own um outlook on pizza. That's what sets us apart.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I agree with this totally. That's amazing. How do they you said something amazing actually before? Get yourself in the environment to actually understand if you want to be there. It's tough. It's tough.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah, it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Everyone thinks you guys are like the electricians of the world, you know. You guys got the cleanest chef job. No, you know, it's easy.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

You can't do this job unless you love it.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

The tangent is dry. You should be on hands on it. You need to be there and see because it's tough. Like I imagine summer time. How is summertime? Ask a GG in front of the oven. Everybody wants the pizza. You want the good pizza. You want the hydration, you want it like it's sometime and it's around. It's it's 40 degrees outside, and we there are sticking up and crazy. Some people don't last, man.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yes, sometimes they're coming, they're not lasting. So like you gotta actually work in it. That's a good point. You gotta work there to make sure you love the job. Work there, make sure you love the job.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Do the hard tasks, do the prep work. Yeah, then go invest into your own DOE program. Yeah, exactly. Find someone that can do a DOE program.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And there's plenty of them out there.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

There's plenty of them.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yes, it's not hard to find. And if you need them, I mean, ask us. We know where to direct you. You got your easy, you've probably got your own course. I don't know, but there's there's there's courses out there.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Danielle, what's what's next for you?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

For me, I've I've hit this level right now that I've never been at. So pretty much um people come into us and they know us right now. So people tell me, you're gonna open another shop? And I say, No. I I'll leave it at my my one shop purely because purely for my love for pizza. That um uh I know that if I open another shop, it'll take the love that I have for the job because I'm gonna put people on, it's not gonna be what I want, it's gonna upset me, it's gonna make me very upset. So um you want to stay in your controlling? For me, for me, it's one shop, one fantastic shop. One experience. Yeah, um, even maybe a bigger shop in the future. Um, two ovens, um, so that the quality doesn't drop, so we can up the numbers. For now, for for us, we're cupped at you know 220 to 250. We can't do more than that. It's like you know, beautiful numbers for a high time. I do believe, I do believe uh uh I have room to do more pizza at the at the level right now. You know, I'm in a high demand. It's like people want to they want to eat the pizza. It's like something special when they come and have it. And it's like, you know, it's quite different, it's unique, and uh I think I think for me it's one shop.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

And how do you keep finding that level of creativity? Um as in like as in you turn up every day, yep, you pump out these numbers. Yep. I know that people love the food, uh-huh. But how do you keep creative? How do you keep coming up with new flavour profiles?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

How do you keep so so I work um with chefs? Um, one of them's um Giorgio, he's a very good friend of mine. It's a good guy. And another chef that we're working on our new menu to come. Um it's a little bit more, you could say, finer. Um that's where it gives us that creativeness to go, you know what, I'm not bored of what I'm doing. It's like the next steps to um elevate the topping. So we got great dough, it's time to elevate and create with the topping.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

So you'd say your secret to that is surrounding yourself with great people?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Definitely, I need definitely. I I I'm I'm not a chef, so for me to you know do a cream, add texture, add this, I need a chef to work with that. It's not gonna be all me. You know, for me to work with a chef's amazing because I'm the pizza chef and the chef gives me the ideas from the kitchen creams, textures, crunch, whatever, you know, and he knows what matches with the pizza. So the next menu is very special. Um, I don't know when I'm gonna release it. Um, it's called space um because it's out of space. Uh-huh. Um, but uh yeah, that's where that's my driving right now. That's like where it's it's like keeping me there, keeping me interested, yeah, pushing the boundaries, you know. And it's good because it's that time where I can, because people have got the trust in me right now, you know. It's hard to get trust and do that big different thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

And how do you feel? Like, even though you've been in 15 years, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 27:37

I feel like I never worked a day in my life. That's all right. I promise to you when I say that to you, I stretched pizza on the bed. The granite bench has been with me for 14 years, and the granite bench that I'm working on now is so old that if you I can't put it in the bin because it's seen every emotion of my face.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Um at what point did you realize? Yeah, fuck, this is it. We're cra we're like now that now that we've got now I know that I'm in my space, yeah, I've got the right space, I've got the right space. What do you think got you to that point? Besides the hard work of you grinding it, what was that pivotal moment for you? Um that I decided that pizza's my life, sort of thing. At what point did you realize that you know Gigi's is now on the world map before you got in the top 50?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

I think the time that um my Instagram went viral when people saw that you know Daniel Gigi's is serious about pizza, and it's like, you know, I can see it on his face when he talks. I can see that the that that this guy is is showing me real stuff, you know. It's passionate. It's passion, you know, and the followers started to grow, so then we started to get like, you know, my kitchen rule chefs in, and then we started to get a little bit of more famous people in, and then they started to promote it for me, and then you know, and then everyone started to believe in it because once they see someone, you know, someone like off my kitchen rules, it gives the customer some belief as well, you know, it adds to that belief.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Credibility.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah, so so those guys saw the passion on my face when I was explaining things, like, you know, the video like when I explained what to look out for when dining out and eating a pizza. And I explained, make sure your pizza makers looked after your food, look inside of the crust, and make sure it's light. After that video, that was the video that everyone went crazy about.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Because you did something that no one's done before. You didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, I educated I educated people that when you eat my pizza, it's been well looked after. And when you eat it, you go home and you feel like you haven't eaten, and it's not super salty where you're gonna drink lots of water. It's well looked after. You can have a dessert after it. You can go and say, you know what, I feel okay. You know, I had a pizza, it's all right, it's all good. We're not leaving here like we're stuffed our face with it. We can't even drink anymore, it's like it's like Mateo's pizza, it's the same, it's contemporanea, it's been looked after.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

It's like it's so is that the style you call it? Contemporary?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yes, yeah, it's contemporanea. I think it I think I've added my own twist to it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

It's a contemporary approach to Neapolitan.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, yeah, it's I like I see like calling calling it contemporary means like sort of expressing your vision. Yeah. For what I'm trying to do, because I worked a lot with the Napolitan style, what I try to try to do with my pizza today, it's sort of to go into correct what I didn't like about the traditional Napolitan style, which there is a few things that I was not agree on, and I start to work on it, try to develop the best that I could.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

How did you combat the hate that you got when you tried to change things?

SPEAKER_00 31:03

So how you combat that?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

The hate. Because there are a lot of people that throw hate at you saying that you want to change your you make want to make your own version. What are you doing to Neapolitan?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Oh, okay. I was working with a first classic pizza. My father used to make a classic pizza, which is a little bit less irrated with the low degrees, which is uh well classical. Classic Neapolitan. There's classic, there's Neapolitan, there's a Roman sta Classica. It's like very flat, small dough ball, like more pizzas in the oven, a little bit cruncher, all this stuff. Then I shift into Neapolitan.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

How many styles of pizza are there?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

There's a lot. Oh man, there's a Roman style, there is pizza, there is uh Neapolitan, there is man. Man, they're all this and they're all great. Yeah, excellent. That's going back to the first conversation. As long as you do it properly, it's good. There's New York style, there's Detroit style.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

So you learned the classica?

SPEAKER_00 31:53

I learned the classica. Then I shift into Neapolitan because my father didn't want me to work with him. And they sent me to work with this guy, which is actually one of my best friends today, which is his nickname is Magica Napoli. Wow. So I start to learn with him. Start learning with him. I learned a lot, a lot, especially about the wood fire oven, all these things. Then I moved here, and I still was on the the Neapolitan style with a friend of mine, Luca Di Napoli, which he actually got a shop in North Bondi. And with him I grew a lot. He's also like from second generation, if I remember correctly, of pizza chef and stuff. But I was still not happy because I actually remember one night back then I was still in Matteo Double Bay, that they gave me a um a new flower brand to try. I tried, and the guy who gave me the flower came in to check it up, and my dough didn't perform uh as I wanted. And I was feeling that. Since then, I started to change everything. I went up to Eddie, the owner, said Eddie, we need to change the dough machine. Yeah, let's go to the one with double speed. I gonna start to revol, I'm gonna do a revolution. Yeah. Like, are you sure? Like, man, trust me. They like a week later, I see an email. I buy you the new machine. Oh, okay. Man, since then I start and actually start to talk a lot with a friend of mine that used to work with me here in when we were both 22, which his name is Emanuele Riema, which is a number one. That guy is the best. He's actually also in fifth top pizza. He's working in Sardina, he's looking after two pizzeria, he's amazing. And with him, he started like to tell me, Matte, I think in your moment I've got because he was on my same style, then he left Australia. But we're still brothers, literally. So these guys start to give me the input, man, shift up, start to learn everything, start to do the revolution. And I started, and everything started coming together. Because all the things that I experienced with my practical knowledge start to go ahead. And the first things they suggest to me, go, it was like going by this book, which is from uh Pier Giorgio Giorilli, which is actually the guy who invented the bigger Giorilli. And the book is called Panificando, which starts to explain to you from the seed, the internal part of the seed.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

What's this book?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

What's it called? It's Panificando, which means baking.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

And I read all this book is it in English? It's in Italian. But I think I don't know if there is an English version, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

It should be easy to translate.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah, I don't think it's that hard. And it it it explains everything, like about the the wit. From the wit to what you see, the taste, the nutrients, everything that happens, all the structure that there is behind. Man, my my mind went nuts. And then after that, I start to to to to build up my own vision.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

What I've what I've heard from both of you right now, yeah, sharing your stories, uh is one common thing. Surrounding yourself with great people. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

You need you need to in this industry to to grow. Yeah, you can't grow.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

You need to surround yourself with people that want you to grow, and the people that are happy to see your face. When they see you, they're happy to see you.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, you know, not and any other way. And buy not great people, people that are smarter than you.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

You need it. I can't complain about it. Fede is a scientist.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

You know, so like with you having someone as a chef, for example, that's experienced, yeah, he's adding that flavor profile for you. For you, it's been like having those mentors all the way around you, yeah. In fact, guiding you in your pizza job.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I can move, I can move in the kitchen as well, like about doing puree and stuff. Like, I'm very aware of it. Of course, still lots to learn. But the thing is that if I think like when I want to change the menu, when I want to change the topping, when I want to adapt to it, I always try to follow the seasons. Be like, it's it's good in in a lot of aspects, which can be prices, which can be the nature of the the veggies itself or whatever. So I try to be this, but I won't release a pizza without asking first Frederick, of course. So who is better than him? If I'm I'm if I'm having a terrible idea, he will tell me straight away, man. And have you had those moments where it's like we talk it genuinely to us because at the end who is going to suffer potentially could be the customer. We don't want it too often. Yeah, but like sample the other day I was like, I want to do a pizza with pumpkin. No, it's too sweet. What we put in contrast, I was like, olive crumble. It was like, what about kale? It was like, yeah, you know what? Blench the kale so the chlorophyll set up properly, and then you fry it to what's hot because it would be water in the kale. Once you fry it, it will be like somebody shooting you with a kale. And then I started the purple cleaner. The fryer will go crazy. So now we build up this pizza with uh the pumpkin pure, smoke propola, the the pork sausages, and then we end up with crispy kale, the pecorino, and olive crumble to contrast the sweetness of the pumpkin. It's crazy. The pizza man is going crazy. Customers are going nuts for it.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Like it's it's it's beautiful. So, you know, fuck that's unreal, man.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

It gives me structure. Like, I'm calling of it. What I'm gonna do. Okay, do this. I wanna like what do you think, Frank?

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yeah, but you need to blend it first, and then what things are it gives you the structure and it gives you the actionable guidance, of course.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Or like another piece that we build up together, same thing. I wanna do the base like with the pecorino pure, but then it's solidify too much. If these are in the fridge, then room temperature. What I do, Call Federico. Yeah, very good. I start to try for me.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

But to have access to that knowledge is like a privilege, it's a privilege. It allows you to elevate your and I feel it. I'm yeah, very thankful. That's beautiful. Daniel and Matteo, I'm gonna ask this question to you individually. Sure. Danielle, what's the biggest I'd say, in you because you run a business. What's been the biggest financial setback for you when we change product?

SPEAKER_01 38:05

That was the biggest time I lost money. Yeah. That was the that was the time that you know I was on my knees and I said to my dad, you know, what do I do? Do I change the product back? Do I take it back, you know, or do I keep going? And he said to me, No, don't change it back, keep going. Well, that's that was what my dad did. That's a big step. Yeah, he said. Do not change the product.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Because he believed in you.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Pretty much. My dad believed in me. My dad the whole way believed in me. Um so if it wasn't for my dad, I may have turned turned back because it was such a loss in sales.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah, financial pressures are a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Well, it's like I'm not making my money anymore. It's like, you know, I'm setting back.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

I'm like it's important to have that business partner then. Like, you know, put it he's your dad first and foremost. Yeah, secondly, but mainly in this whole in this whole conversation, yeah, he's actually your business partner.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Look, he's my business partner, and I don't think I could do without my business partner. It's it's it's too hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

So he runs everything else for you while you do the pay.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

He runs the financial side.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

All the pays, all the all the pays for suppliers, he does that, you know, he does all that for me. I'm the hands-on guy, yeah, and he's the behind-the-scenes guy. Yeah, and it just works so well.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

If you're gonna go in with a partner, it's just such a good combination to have someone who looks after financial and you know, someone who does the hands-on stuff, and you know, uh after me talking to so many different people and being exposed to the industry, I found the most successful partnerships are guys that have autonomy, which means the ability to work in their domain. Yes, yes, and everybody knows their roles and responsibilities. Correct. I I first think of course it is, you know, and the fact that you know you partner yourself with people that have you know the same mindset, similar mindset, you're aligned, yeah, but your strength is your strength is in the pizza section, yes, his strength is in the numbers, hundred percent, hundred percent. Let them focus. And when you partnered with Frederico, you said it when you opened his wife was there still there running the floor, still there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Still there, it's such a it's such a great combination, like when you've got strengths in different areas, and that the this works so well, different Venice guys, it's like they got pressure on, like, there's a lot of work to do every day, and I imagine like been up and running for something like 10 years, but like at the those partners, those partners have allowed you to this is what people don't see behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

No, this is what we need to show them. Yeah, that sometimes business partners that have that believe they first of all, the other common thing here is they bel they believe in each other, but they believe in you. Yeah, yes, yes, true. Your dad believed in you, 100%. Frederico believed in you, yeah. No? 100%. So they bought into the vision. Yes. So any business, there's a vision. Of course. Pizza, the pizza maker, that's a visionary. Yeah. So they bought into the vision. Yeah. When you buy into the vision and you have people around you that buy into the vision, that's where it's strong.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

It's unbreakable, it's unbreakable. It's so strong. You know, you can go through anything and still be there. Yeah. It's you need it. That's that's what we need.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

That's unbelievable. You go from strength to strength to strength. Now, Mateo, you've what's one piece of advice you'd give because I know Danielle grew up in Australia. Yeah. We grew up. Yeah. You've come from overseas. And you've been able to excel in your career here. You weren't left behind. You navigated your way through though. You made a name for yourself. Which is big. It's it's it's fucking hard. Not easy, man. Not easy. Being an expat and Frederico, I know that he did that as well. Because there were boys on my podcast last week that told me they were trained by him at Omeggio.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Man.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

The boys from Burgerhead, you know the food truck that I've got? Yeah. Yeah? Josh, one of them. He used to work under Frederico under Omegio. Federico went to Japan to do like three-month camp, like and he said this guy, this guy said Josh from Burgerhead, who's got one of the busiest burger truck businesses out there. These guys do 220 burgers in an hour. Wow. Wow. Out of a truck out of 10 square meters. Out of 10 square meters, right? Yeah. And he said, Frederico shaped me. Fuck. Man, it's it's it's Imagine, you're talking a guy in a bur in a in a burger truck, right? So my question to you, Himateo, is what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone that wants to be an expat and move here and make it in Australia?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Okay. First of all, be humble and work hard, because the first difficulties is all about a visa. Yeah, before you become someone, before you can claim your rights and do whatever you really want to do, you need to have the visa behind it. You need to be a permanent resident. Because you're otherwise, man. You literally to do the way I did, which is getting a sponsor, you literally get married to your restaurant. Even though like you become an owner without getting the share. Okay? You get the problem? Like, like an example, the pizza chef do not show up, is your day off, but you are the one who sponsored the ring. You run it. I did this but I was young. So honestly, completely, I didn't felt squashed up because I was 21. Yeah. I didn't even speak a word in English. For me, I started working man. I was working like in Lampedusa. I started in May, still October, not even one day off.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

So for me, when the people don't see this. No, they told they told me they say you're boxing on fucking idiots. They didn't say this.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

They they told me that like you got two days off, you work five days a week. Two days off. I was carrying on back then the flower of 25 kilos. Yeah, like two days off. I'm 20, man. I'm I'm used to working season, summertime, May to October, no day off. I used to eat summer in Italy. Because for me, start to work. Goodbye. Yeah. Like finish at 1 a.m. People start to dine at 7:30. And we don't share pizza in Italy, bro. 20 people, 20 pizzas. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you understand. It's clear that Italians have a pizza themselves. I can show you. I can show you my father Bench when he was making the pizzas. There's like 15 pizzas on top of that bench. Like that it will never stop. Yeah. Like massive. And then moving here, I start. So the first advice I would give is to be humble, be focused, and give the priority to your visa.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

And keep remember while you're here, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

You know, it's hard to forget. It's sometimes you forget that. But you gotta remember if you're coming here, if you're coming from a different country and you want to be a hospitality professional, your goal here is you want to get your visa, right? Of course. So you've got to do everything you can.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

I did that's what I did. Actually, I remember that when I did uh the English test for the PR, the permanent residency, which is like sort of the second last step, because then the year after I became a citizen, I it was during COVID. So I used to see all the venues of uh ILC English test shutting down for COVID. That was you know what I did? I I booked four $375 each. Boom, I was like, I don't care. I booked four. First one for half-point, second one for half-point. The third one, mistakenly, I booked the academic. So it was for people going to uni, even more difficult. Halfway, I was like, what is this? I stopped, the guy said, No, man, it's wrong, it's not general English. This is academic. So, come on. I was freaking out because for me, I want to get it done because I knew that once I was to let us understand, free, then I can start to move and looking for what I want. An opportunity, and and also deal. Like we we can deal. Like, what we want to do, you do this for that, you do this for this. Before I was sort of okay, I'll do what I have to do. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

But that that's that's what you you told that's you stick it out though.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

You wouldn't chop the management stop one second. I was training, surfing, and working on stop to empty my my mind full of thoughts. Because if something goes wrong, everything is gone. I've seen a friend of mine, like there is another friend of mine that now is managing a couple of restaurants in Bali, maybe he's actually the one the Daniel visit. That for something happened, they made a mistake with his visa, they gave him 28 days to leave the country. He was one of my best friends. We worked together four years. Your life just fell apart. Boom. Wow. So for me, this was the hardest part. But once I got it, man, wow. But for me, I I was already for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

How many years did it take you?

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I moved the uh 7th of November 2014.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

And when did you get your uh 2022? Two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Wow, so it took you a whole time, man. Seven five years? 14? Oh 14 to 2022.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, eight years. Because I did all the process, then I moved it, so I start again. I lost nine months.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Why'd you move to a different venue?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

I moved to Mateo Double Bay from the previous restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

So you start all over again.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

I start all over again. But actually, it was a good choice. I grew a lot there. Yeah, I got man. We used to do like crazy numbers, like crazy. Yeah, I learned a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

So you so you move venues and you learn, but you didn't you didn't regret that?

SPEAKER_00 47:48

No, I was always in charge. Actually, when I moved, I become when I moved to Mateo, I became the pizza chef in charge, like in terms of orders, rostering, recruiting, training, uh, food cost, everything that I could be part of the meeting as like a manager of the the things because I manage my pizzeria sort of my own way, respecting the guidelines of the owner, of course. But it's I'm very independent, like I know we're doing because I care. Like I go there like an hour before, I check my fridge, I get my coffee, I look around. That's like my daily life. I finish my training, I wake up at 6 30, breakfast, go down the beach, do some training. Uh it's been a while, but I usually go to surf every morning, go to work, then finish, straight home, go to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

That's life, that's why I'm and what's an important piece of advice you give to someone when they're setting up their section?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

The section. Well, in my opinion, what I do, I divide everything. So, like if you open my fridge and you're looking for a special day backup for the fridges on top of the bench, sort of the one in front line that you use, I divide everything. So if you look up to the right, you will find all the dairy. Like you find the manchego, you find a provola, you find a ricotta. Bottom to the left, you find all the veggies. I go the prawns, which is the fish which sometimes is close for because it's the only type of fish that I use, but it's all divided like this. I I ask the guys to label everything so you have more tracking because sometimes maybe you work today, then you're off, the other guy comes. You need to make sure you you use everything properly.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

And what about you, Daniel?

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Yeah, look, I suggest um, like when you're setting up a it's it's like setting up a kitchen, it's the same thing. Um, pretty much dividing all your sections. Um, have a have a checklist paper, um uh a day, and roughly how much you need on the day with a number. Um set it up in like topping, garnish, um, dough. I don't have that because I do the my own dough. So topping, garnish, and base creams. So if you do a truffle cream, if you do a Napoli sauce or the red sauce, or the if you do a garlic butter or your garlic base, they're your bases. So make sure that you got all your bases ready, all your toppings and all your garnish. So it's all split up. That's amazing. With your num with your days and how much you need for each day.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

You know, yeah. With both of you been in this industry for a very long time and learnt the hard way and grown into this position. Yeah, you're obviously behind all this is passion. Definitely. And uh one controversial topic which you know brought us around here today. Okay, um, I don't discriminate on anyone, and I want everyone businesses to succeed. Of course. And we don't want any any animosity between anybody. Not at all. But I think it's it's it's we need to address the elephant in the room.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Can you educate me on a leopard crust?

SPEAKER_00 50:56

For sure I can.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Danielle, what's your take on a leopard crust?

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Look, um I think Matteo's more um scientifically driven than I am. I'm more, I'm more see, don't do, do, add more, add less. I'm that type of guy. So I don't really read. I'm the type of guy that doesn't read, doesn't look into things too much. But from the leopard crust view, it's a mistake. I'm sorry, it's I'm not naming names, but the leopard crust is a mistake. It's it comes from the fridge. If you use dough directly from a fridge that's hydrated low into a hot oven, you're gonna get blisters of black, which is what the leopard crust is. Another thing that Mateo explained the other day, there's no more sugar left of the flour of the dough, which then stays white and black. You get that contrast of white and black. And the thing about the thing about the leopard crust is what Mateo said the other day, is when it goes in the oven, it doesn't get oven spring. It doesn't um the the the gluten doesn't spring and get that beautiful uh crystallization and cooked, it stays chewy and gummy. Is that like raw? Yeah, it doesn't cook. It's semi-inquiry.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

If you look in cook it properly, yeah, it doesn't get that it's called oven spring.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Okay, it's called oven spring.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

It doesn't get an oven spring to open up the gluten to give you that airiness completely. It stays a little bit flat.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

So the gluten's hardened.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Yeah, it stays some somehow stays. Because one thing's also that uh uh okay. First of all, I'm gonna clarify one thing. Yeah, that I'm not judging anyone's time. Not at all. I'm no I'm not one to tell them what are you doing in your business, how are you making your pizza? I'm just saying that it's scientifically wrong. And most of the time this happened. Why? Because a lot of pizza chef, a lot of pizza chef, still believing that the yeast is poison. The yeast dies at 60 degrees. Okay? Whatever you put in your dough, the yeast will die once it touches the oven. There's no pizza that cooks at 60 degrees. Minimum would be 280, I guess. Once you make a baked pizza home, you know what I mean? So if you eat the dough from the bench raw, maybe you can feel the yeast. But in that case, it's not. So what they're doing, they associate the extending the time in the fridge, thinking that that dough would be better. So they reduce the yeast, they leave this dough in the fridge for days and they think it's better, which is actually not. And happen what he said, the crust doesn't develop. The sugars, low, start to disappear because in 72 hours, even that small amount of yeast that you make will start to demolish the sugars, you don't get the color that you want. Yeah. Okay. And especially in a direct dough, which is usually for the traditional Napolitan style, this happens when there is the thermal shock. Once you from the fridge you go into the oven. But for the contemporary, once you have a high percentage of pre-ferment, which is 80, 60, yeah, because on some of your doughs, it looks like there's decoloration is decoloration is due to the right fermentation, which can happen. There's the irresistible there is the flame that goes on the on the on the crust, which can make it happen. But once I'm see the crust completely full, completely full. Not some black dots full. These black dots completely burn. Guys, come on. It's not healthy to eat something that burn. You know what I mean? Your body can process this.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

I wanna I want to let the people understand something there's leoparding, which is for me a mistake. But then there's a cha, which means the dough is light, because once it's hitting the oven, it's so thin and expanding. This is what Ben is still trying to understand, but we're teaching him something right now. So there's this so there's leoparding, but then there's a char, which I believe I have that because I take the dough to the peak, which I love at the peak.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

It's like a steak. Yeah, you put your char and a steak, yeah, but if you left it too long, it'd be f you can't eat it.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Not quite.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Can you know how it becomes the steaky food is always cooking? It's hard, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Not quite, actually. No, no, okay. Because once you put a pizza of mine in the oven, because it's been lightened so much and the flour's been pushed hard, and I'm using my dough at a peak stage, it's so light and thin. So you get little chars in little spots. That's different to leopeting. That means digestion, super light, super light. And not everyone understands it.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Um this is this is why this is why I brought you guys in. I for me, for me, you two, I'll say it again. Yeah, you guys, for me, and I've been in this industry, yeah, and I've seen the industry, and you've seen that I've gone around and I've traveled. Yeah, you two to me are some of the best pizza chefs in Australia. Thanks. Thank you. And you guys compete on a global level for the quality of pizza that I've seen, that I've tried. So this is why we need to educate people.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

This is what I'm trying to do. And some people totally get it, what I'm talking about right now. Totally get it. Bakers, totally get it. It's like yeah, people in the industry understand. Yeah, chefs totally get it. They get it. When the customer comes to the table and eats the pizza, they come to me after the after the they've eaten the pizza and they tell me, Daniel, it wasn't burnt. I go, yeah, it's not burnt. It looks current, it looks charred because it's so light. It's so thin that when it rises and it gets its oven spring, it's so thin that you're gonna get a char from the oven. Um if you don't get, I could make that char less if I put less hydration. That means I get a little bit of a heavier pizza, which it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

But for me, it will change the bite.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

I'm going for the I'm going for a bite.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Also, the the bite, the bite, like you know, for my like I focus a lot on the bite. This is like one of my biggest concerns. And for me to like have a very short bite, and having a pizza that dissolves in your mouth can be digestion, of course. Yeah, yeah, can be the way you spin your dough. If you are advanced, this guy knows what I'm talking about. Yeah, I know. I know other things that I work on, but once you do this very irrated dough, your dough extends a lot. So I drop a lot. My doughs is like 245, 250 grams totally with the water. So once the water evaporates would be 140 grams, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

It's super light.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Would be a portion of spaghetti. So already on in your hands you feel that it's light.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

I don't know if you try the at the massive, once you hold it, it's like it's like it's like it's just it's just there enough to hold what's on top of the phone.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

The bite is invisible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Yeah, you know that that's what it's straight on your palate. And another thing that people seem to think that the pizza has to be holding and not, it's gotta have a little bit of softness to it, man. Like it's that's what we're into. It's a different style for it.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

No, but it's also cooked differently. And also, and also what I do an example, I don't even put like my thing. I don't put the tomato all on the crust. It's my thing. Some people are doing it because they're loving that softness.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

What do you cut your pizza in four? And why do you use scissors?

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Both of you.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Okay. You go first. You go first. Because I know I know you're passionate about this. No, okay. During service, I don't always cut it with scissors because usually if I'm busy and I don't have at the moment, I don't even have much space on my pass, so I just try to simplify. Uh sometimes I do it because of course it's easy knows even better than me. If you like make the whole, especially while the pizza is still a bit warm, you cut it with the scissors. You don't ruin it, you don't squash the structure inside the structure that is still hot. I imagine you baked a loaf of bread and then you squash it till it's still warm. It won't come up anymore.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

You won't have a nice looking structure.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Yeah, that's that's the rhythm of the scissors. In Italy is going crazy with this Caesar thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

It's it's it's it's already been done in Italy. People started to say, like, uh, this guy's an idiot for cutting the like it's been done in Italy, it's an Italian thing, it's not even something we invented here. It's like no, no, but it's something it's something to like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Any publicity is good, publicity.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Any publicity is good, exactly. So and why four not six? Um, look, I feel like when a customer picks up a slice of four, it's easier to just fold it up, you get your topping there, and you eat it. It's like if you do six or eight, it's not your topping.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

If if it's on request and they're asking me to go on six or eight, I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it. For me, I I don't compromise. It's really up to you. You know, maybe people can start to see, okay, you can't six, then maybe you do eight slices of uh a fairy diameters of pizza. As you say, it would be that little bit more beefy. It's not enjoyable to eat.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

It would be a pizza that's gonna like not but it's like scissors, for you it's about the structure of the pizza. Yeah, you want to make sure they enjoy it, and that's how you that's how you perceive it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

And and with the scissors, like Mateo said, it it's to not wreck the structure of the crust so you can see the big hole. And people don't realise that it takes a lot longer to cut a pizza there. I don't mate, I don't cut pizzas with the scissors on a 250-night service. Yeah, that's just for a customer that's come from Dubai or something. I'm here from Italy, I saw you, I want to get it. So I will go to the table and cut it for him at the table. It's more of a it's more of a show for someone or someone who who's come far for me that I want to express my love for them for them coming to the table, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

It's like it's like a table side.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Yeah, because I want him to just show them the craft probably, you know. The what what we what we strive for, you know, what we you know what we work for.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

And just before we wrap up, you're onto something new.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

That uh what I mean that by starting something new?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:28

Well, I or should we not leave that?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

No, no, no, no, no. We we actually we actually should because the the oven should arrive in something like a week, ten days. We're going to open if everything goes accordingly to plan the first couple of weeks of September. We're gonna open Regina, which means queen. Of course, with Federico, his wife, and other two guys, which one is uh Federico's uh manager Alumi, another one is Carl, who is uh the owner of Leo in the city, and altogether we're gonna open this spot, which will sort of be a sort of pizza oven. We're gonna have uh electrical oven for some type of like particular type of dough, multi-cereal stuff, like sort of even pizza dessert, whatever. We're gonna have the Fazzone wood fire oven, which is the one that also Bonnet Tamartucci go, which is like one of the number one.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

I heard that's gonna be the first Fazzone oven in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

It is, it is this. This is like my my secret weapon.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

You know, that's a blessing, bro. Man, from that's like that's like the Italian godfathers going. Exactly. I can't come to the baptism, but he's the basin.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Man, you're the first be the first one to have, and and we just I'm super focused on this. I'm still at the boy at the moment. Like we we we meet up like every week because now we literally just got the key of the site, and thank you so much. Man, it's it's my dream.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

It's a it's a blessing to have you two in the room, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Thank you.