SPEAKER_00 0:08

How'd you guys come about Burger Head?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I was leaving said restaurant where we were met. I think I was going to Bali for a month or so. Tim said, What's up next? I think isn't that how it happened?

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Yeah, I said to him, uh, so it was like he's quitting, we're having drinks, end of thing, like see later drinks. And uh he was going to Bali for a while, and I said, Oh, you seem like a smart guy, what's what's the next plan? I've got money saved up, I'm gonna work for myself too. And he was like, Let's have a beer, and yeah, one thing led to another. I mean, for but the idea for Burger started in Sweden.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

So, yeah, back in back in Sweden, I guess I was in the fine dining, playing with my tweezers and shopping shit, really, really small. And uh, we we kept going to this burger bar, and it was there was nothing like it in Sydney at the time, and it was just phenomenal. They're mincing their own meat, making their own buns, cutting their own chips, making their own ketchup, they'll everything. Everything, everything like what we wanted to 110% be, but the reality of like doing that is a $40 burger, you know. Yeah, so we tried to meet in the middle with what we became, but like the idea for that was yeah, planted flipping burgers over in Sweden, Stockholm. Was kind of the bigger did you ever work there? No, no, I ate their weekly. I ate their weekly. I sent Tim there when he went on a Euro trip, but yeah, it was just it was phenomenal, you know, like flavors on point and just the technique, and and it showed me that you can take that fine dining experience and you can feed the masses at that same like level of dedication. Applied to casual world.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

So, what much? Yeah, what would you call Burger Head's tagline then?

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So, like our business.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Your motto, your tagline, like what's burgerhead about?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Burgers that taste good and do good. Um, we we lean heavily into the community side of things or where we operate. Uh, when we had the stores, that was a real real big focus. We used to, you know, and and and we tried to explain to our staff as it wasn't just giving crap away and making people happy, it was it was building a connection. Yeah, connection. And uh it was really something that was drilled in to and even even still in our marketing, in our communication to people, we want to make burgers that taste good and do good. And that that you know stems from choosing the right products, having the right people behind us, looking after our team, uh, and then looking after our suppliers and looking after our customers.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, I find that um you guys have always been very product forward. There are a lot of people that are I think you have to be. Um there are a lot of businesses that aren't that don't have a good product.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

There's a lot of businesses that do like a seven out of ten product, but yeah, do very well. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

They do very well, exactly. But there's yeah, there's a lot of food businesses that that do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Um, but you guys have always Can you name any that are like that seven out of ten that have been in business and all for ten years, though?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

There's plenty, bro.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

My whole thing was that aren't that aren't in a top location.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

My whole thing was the fact that like if you don't put everything into the product, your marketing, your branding, yada yada only carries you so far.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Okay, but what's we can we can digress and debate that, okay? Um what I'm trying to say to you is the what I'm trying to get at actually is giving you guys a fucking compliment. So stop fucking debating, stop debating me. What I was trying to say here, guys, is that Burger Head have always been very, very product forward, and you guys have always tried to put in the the the best you could into into your beef, call it, uh whether it be your spices, whether it be the actual meat that you use. Um, you don't like taking corners. You guys like to produce as much you give me this fucking smoke. Tim takes corners, guys. No, like I've seen I've seen the way that you guys operate, and there's a lot there's a lot of things that you could do, potentially, that would like be a fucking shortcut. But you just don't take that.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

100%, 100%. It's uh it's not fun mincing at two in the morning sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Sometimes, unfortunately, it doesn't get relayed that hard.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, no. I mean, you definitely when you got your truck and you're lined up against ten others, and you know they've just bought everything in and you're laboured over making your sauce, making over your patties. What the fuck are we? Like we're at the end of the day, we're all gonna get money in the tills. Yeah, but it's just who we are. Yeah, it's like we we could buy patties, we could buy a pre-cooked paddy where we could chuck it on the grill and just heat it up. But intrinsically, I'd feel like shit giving that to somebody.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

You guys have been able to hold your values like to the core of the business, but as well as scale it.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah, you've got to hold yourself to a high degree and have pride and be proud of what you do.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

A lot of people have pride and they're proud, but your your individual values of being like to be able to do it and to be able to scale it. Yeah, no, that's different. Pride and pride and proud is parked to that. What you guys need to get a like a tap on your shoulder, which I want to go into, is the fact that you guys have been able to diversify and scale while staying true to those core values of where you guys have learned, right? So you opened Burgerhead in when? 2016?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Uh the journey between 2016 to 2017.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, yeah, 20, January 2017 opened.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

January 2017. So in planning phase 2016, January 2017, how old were you at the time?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

23?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I was 21 when we started to plan it, and then 22 and 24 when it opened. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

22, 24. Wow. And how much cash did it take you both at the time?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Uh 48, maybe 40 each, and some lot, but and was Dickie on that too?

SPEAKER_00 5:51

No, it was just us two. Just you two. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Lying to a bank.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

At like at the three to six month mark when you guys were rolling, did you at what point did you start feeling the burn?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Week one.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Week one.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Uh look, we opened, and I think the target was to sell 70 burgers a day because we were in fine dining. We had only ever been used to serving 50 to 60 people, and so our numbers were sort of centered around that and providing ourselves with a decent wage. We never once thought that we were gonna get past year one, let alone I think at our peak we had 70 staff, and so our mentality was uh, you know, let's sell 300 odd burgers a week, and then day one, I think it was over 500. It was yeah. So what the fuck did you do then? Cried. It was uh you know, it was it was crazy. We were going home as the bins were getting emptied. Tim was crashing at mine, I think, three nights a week.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

No, I had to pick up the uh so every day when we first opened, I would wake up at seven, drive to Marrickville and pick up the bread because they wouldn't deliver to Penrith, it was too far away. We didn't know anything about suppliers, and then drive from Marrickville all the way out to Penrith. This is before the tunnel. So cop the Parramatero Crush, everything like that. Get to the store hopefully at about nine. Uh, we'd all be there getting pretty much set up for the day, um, slicing the bread, buttering the bread, and then just everything in general. Cook to about nine o'clock and then pack down, clean up, and then restart up to prep. And we prep to probably three-ish in the morning every night. Then I drive back home for an hour, sleep at 4 a.m., wake up at 7, and do it all again. And that was almost every single day for about two months.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

It was fucked.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

It was crazy, it was it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

But we never like think about call 30 grams of sauce on a burger, and from the fine dining world of 70 burgers, that's uh 70 times 30. What's that? 2.1 kilos now. But add another two zeros on that when you're making 7,000 burgers worth of sauce just to get you by.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

We every every day it was like, oh, this will be enough. Never like and we didn't have systems, we didn't have anything like that. You know, it was had your Miseon Plus, you little fucking gas trap. I think we're gonna I think we're gonna need four kilos of sauce today, and then you needed eight.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah, so you're making that, then you're making mash at like three times a day because you're you've sold out, and you just can't believe the amount of food we were going through, and then we didn't have tubs and things big enough to make that much.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

We didn't know the machinery that we needed to make our life easier, too, like and and we we didn't have the budget in the beginning to you know fork to even get there. So we were using mandolins to like cut onions, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

And so you would you went from obviously underestimating what you guys could do. You opened, went through a honeymoon phase, I'd say, and did you see the numbers starting to normalize, or what did it start going to like?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Uh it just went like through the roof and then came down and then plateaued out.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Plateaued out to like what a couple hundred burgers a day or something?

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Uh yeah, I'd say 28k a week. 28k in revenue. This is like a few years, five or six years ago now, though. Yeah. So and we were well cheaper back then, like, but yeah, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And then at what point did you guys turn around and say, okay, I need to do a s I need I need to grow this?

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Uh from day one, the three of us were like super ambitious at heart, and it was always, always gonna be more, more, more, like grow, grow, grow.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

There was three of us, and we we're like, well, we're not gonna retire, should we have one restaurant? So we knew we wanted to open more. We didn't know that and the answer to how many more. Uh but we knew that was always the the end goal.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, and fast forward say four years, four or five years down, pre-COVID, 20, I want to say 2019. I like to reference this year a lot. Um, because I've seen a lot of businesses that were doing great in 2019. Was there like decisional pivotal moments where they started taking that another step?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Where were you at in 2019? Did you have any other stores?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I think we got the truck. We had the truck, we had the truck. So along the way, we'd opened up uh uh what was gonna be a you know one month pop-up in Beaumont Hills. I think that went to the three or four months. I visited that one actually, and uh we quickly learnt that you know opening two is not the same as opening one. Yep. Uh we learned a lot of mistakes along the way in that little endeavor. Then our next foray was into getting the truck, and then from there we were, you know, we were doing the truck, and then that's where we were probably in 2019, doing uh large-scale events like the Easter show and and uh like the local sort of markets, all those sort of things in different areas to build up the profile. And then yeah, then COVID hit.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

And then COVID came and then you guys diversified again. You went you pivoted into like burger boxes, yeah. You pivoted into home deliveries and at-home cooking shirt cooking longs, yep. So again, very product forward, trying to be, you know, produce quality, give that back to the consumer, and provide them the experience at their door. And but you guys didn't go through some aggregator, you guys did it yourselves. What was that experience like when you created those burger boxes?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Uh it was good. Yeah, no, well, uh, I think what happened was so COVID was picking up steam, everyone's talking about it, it's in the news. Like, what does it mean? What's this? And then the Easter show got cancelled, I think, a week before it was meant to kick off.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

And that's we just bought like 20, 30 grand of stock.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, we had started to ramp up for it because you can't just do that overnight. And so the show got officially cancelled, and then it was a moment of like, oh fuck, like this is real, what's gonna happen? Like, blah, blah, blah. We'd already seen, I think, other cities had started to shut down. So I think the day it got cancelled, we were down in the dumps and kind of called it a day and went home. Then the next day it was sit down and it was like, all right, how are we gonna beat this thing? And uh it was pretty much mapping out, like, okay, first fear is every just no sales at all. And if it gets to here, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do here, etc.? And it was just planning.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Um we sat in a library, the local library all day. Yeah, down a Penrust Library. And we just sort of said, like, at this level, do we coal star? Like, yeah, we're like A, we did want to coal star. We've always had the mentality of can't make money without people, right? Yeah, like you can only do what you can only do so far. And so that was sort of the last resort. It's like, all right, well, how are we gonna bring more money in? What's gonna happen? What's gonna be this new reality for the next three months, six months?

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, I was kind of looking at pretty much people's patterns. So people we thought would be scared and not want to leave the house. So then the fear was okay, everyone's gonna smash Uber Eats. Right. They take a massive chunk. How do we beat that? So we launched our own delivery first. So a lot of the front of house staff who they picked up extra work pretty much because they became drivers. Um, then you couldn't leave your house unless you were getting food and you had to stay within five kilometres. So no restaurants out in those fringe housing estates. Let's take the restaurant to them. So we dropped the truck in a random housing estate on the fringes, and we were doing like 300 burgers a night in someone's driveway, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Um, that kept the team working. And then we noticed other restaurants doing take-home kits and things like that. And we always said to ourselves, like, we want to do a bigger, better. So we we did those kits and we launched them, and it was yeah, like cook at homes. And then we thought, how do we make it better? And we noticed one a place did a like video series, so they posted themselves cooking it. I think, and then you got the kit, you watched the video on how to do it. We said, We'll do it live, people can ask questions and we'll cook with them. And before the live, I said to Josh, like, why don't like we'll have a drink just to get rid of the nerves a bit? And then um I took it too far, and then while I remember, and then pretty much while I was watching it, I was getting entertained while our videographer was setting it all up. We had a couple, and then I was like, Man, what if we turn it into a drinking game? What if we just make it fun and like this entertaining thing? Yeah, and then it literally turned into this almost like weekly TV show, yeah, interactive thing. Like, imagine watching Master Shep, you're doing it with them all this. Um, so yeah, we're playing drinking game. Like, if you swore you had to drink, if you said arm you had to drink, burger you had to drink. And for people in COVID, when you had absolute fuck all to do, turn into a lot of fun and activity at home.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And we had a really, really engaged audience. Like everyone was engaged.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

We were tuned in every week. I was waiting for each bloody burger box delivery we'll cook in a longer home. Like it was good fun. It was, it was, it was it was great fun. And I like we did some stuff in COVID that you'd never do again, but it was just hilarious, you know? Yeah, uh, but one one critical thing you said um obviously uh in the lineup to COVID was thing called the Easter show. A lot of people, I don't know if you know the Easter show, but it's the biggest show in Australia, isn't it? Southern Hemisphere.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Ticketed event in the Southern Hemisphere.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

And when did you guys actually get in?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Year one. Year one. We uh we got invited, I think our third week being open. Wow, and uh they they emailed or they called, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

They emailed their whole thing was they set up a new foodie hall and they'd seen fine dining chef burgers and all that and thought it'd be a good addition, so yeah, they emailed them.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So you you email you got three weeks in, you get emailed people that have been putting tenders in for years for for their lifetime and have never got in, and you guys three weeks in got invited, and we said no, and you said no, we said no initially.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

That's that's how that was. I don't think we told them no. I think we said uh no, we said no. Oh, yeah, responded no. No, it was on the phone. I I said, hey Shane, like thank you for the invite, but yeah, like we are getting pumped, and we pretty much we didn't have the capacity. We had we were a small team at that point, we're doing we're doing extremely well. Uh but we we just honestly couldn't handle that time. And then we plateaued out, like maybe call it another five weeks went by.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, and then did you call him back?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I called him back. I'm like, I'm sure I never said no, but uh and then yeah, they said yeah, no, the offer's still on the table if you'd like it, and it was the best thing we've ever done.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

I remember that actually. I remember you called me and you said, Hey, I'm bootstrapped, I've opened my venue, as you know. Do you have any equipment? Yeah, yeah. Any equipment that you can actually just get to me, anything that will help. And I remembered that we gotta we pulled together some sponsors.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

We did, we did when no one even paid for it. So that was that was pretty cool. Yeah, but you want to know something else that was funny about that show in that period? Right. We nearly bankrupted ourselves, really. Yeah, I think we had a week before the show. We didn't realize how much money we're gonna have to spend like up front up front to get into there, so we got the equipment for free, thankfully. Yeah, but you know, we're getting all these number forecasts for ticket sales and whatever, so we start buying all this food, and we've never had to buy this much food before. Yep, and we uh upfront on the commissions as well, yeah. Up front on that, yeah. So you drop you drop 50 odd grand to call it in like a lead up to the show in that month one month before, and that is a lot of money for a new business. It's a lot of money for people that had to lie to a bank, yes, and uh so we've we're just spending money because we're thinking we're kings at this moment, we've got money rolling in, yeah. Bam, bam, bam, yeah, sure. And it gets up in 23, aren't you? Yeah, it gets the it gets the night before the show opens, and we had like two grand maybe initially in the bank account. Yeah, and uh that was scary because if the show went fucking pear-shade, we were done. We were done before we begun, you know. And uh day one of the show comes, and we're expecting a you know 10-15 grand day. We did, I think, two and a half, three grand the second day. It wasn't much better. And uh, we had to figure out a hundred kilos of chicken. Well, uh, because we'd we'd over-ordered and over prepped and it went off. And we were very, very, very, very, very like against freezing. Um, so it was that was off the cards. So it was like, oh, we've got to cop it on the chin, whatever. And then thankfully he's like that still burns if I can feel it. I can feel it. The 100 kilo the uh yeah, but anyway, because yeah, we're not gonna go, we're gonna go into it. Then go into it. But uh it it it it thankfully turned around and uh and we did some numbers, you know, with that show, and it it sort of opened our eyes to events. It was something we'd never we'd never even thought of. Wow. Never thought of it.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

And now fast track 2024, you opened I think it was like four different venues across the line, and then now we you consolidated all the stores, you closed down all the burger shops, and now you've got like five trucks. Four burger head trucks, four burger head trucks on the road, and uh you still and where where is that growth? What's what's next? Now you've got four trucks, and you're just doing events. What events have you guys done besides besides the Easter show?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Uh well this year alone we and my wedding, of course.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

He didn't the Easter show, and you guys did did some burgers at my wedding. Noble, noble event. No, that was mate, that's creme de la creme, it's on your cards.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

It was bigger than Salim Mahaja's wedding. It came in on the heading. Um came on a camera, mate. Uh well, this year we've done the Melbourne F1, the Easter show. Um Live Golf in Adelaide.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

How was the F1?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Crazy. Yeah, yeah. It's uh my one of my favorite things about the business at the moment is things like the F1, things like the golf. I would never have gone to ever. But it's given us the ability to go there, and of course, it's hard working. We are there to work, but there's little snippets where you can duck out, see a bit of the race, see a bit of the golf, and it's been pretty cool. Just on the weekend, we're at a techno fest. Yeah, shit for business, but good for good vibe.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Um, what else? Field Day? Yeah, big day out.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Steve did field day. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, but we've done music festivals. We did Lost Paradise.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Lost Paradise. You guys did the did you do the catering for the whole thing?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, we did the staff and artist catering uh for that. That was cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Um birthday parties, Christmas parties, anything and everything.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

So sort of touching. All the way from yeah, little Johnny's fifth birthday at home to the Easter show.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

What a journey. So you literally started out bootstrapped, went headfirst, got accepted into the biggest show of the in the southern hemisphere, crushed that, opened four stores, go fuck it, claw back, now go on trucks, and what's next?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Franchising, franchising, growing the trucks. Growing the stores taught us some valuable lessons. We uh we tried to do it alone, and that is hard with staffing, money, life.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

You need guys with skin in the game, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

100%. And uh there's a shame that it took a pretty pretty substantial failure to to work that one out. But look, there's no it's water under the bridge for us now, and we we only look forward, we don't look back.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And there's heaps of there's heaps of franchises in the states right now that have been institutions. You said the question of ten years plus been running fifteen, twenty years. All stores are closing.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Like that. There's like heaps of these fucking. I just seen a whole article on like five different chains.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, Red Lobster.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Red Lobster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Gone. Even here. I mean, you've seen big, big failures here at home at home.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

There's institutions in Melbourne of like 20-something years shutting recently. That was announced this week or last.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

It's it's it's sad. It's sad. It's it's not something that it's not something that our industry is prone to or known. What what do you like before we go into any detail of you know what advice you give to others, but what do you think is the cause of that?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Economic. Plain and simple. People are people are skint at the moment, and it's through no fault of the business owner. It's no fault of the people themselves. You know, they're doing their best, they're they're trying to put food on the table, trying to pay their bills.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

If your mortgage repayment's gone from two grand to six grand a month, what do you expect?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, and and I don't know where they're finding that money, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It's it's crazy. Um it's a credit card economy right now. Everyone's living. I I know people that are honestly, honestly, no joke, business owners are living credit card to credit card. It's sad. And then this rut, this continuous rut, because they're just trying to keep food on the table, the lights on, and their business open.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

You know, they've maxed out every avenue of cash, literally, everything. And they're just like, How do I how do I claw back? How do I claw back? And what do you want them to do? Just say, throw on the tower, go bankrupt. Doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yeah, hospitality, uh, it's not what it used to be.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

But but where there's sadness and times like this, there's still opportunity. There's opportunity, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

No, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And that's what I always tell that's what I always tell people. Like, and I I found anyone that closed when COVID hit the first time.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

I think they missed a very good opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

But when they closed in 2020, they were closing anyway.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Like nail in the coffin.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, it's like mad excuse, right? And everyone's gonna hate me for saying this, but it's it's the reality. 2022, that challenged.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

That was that was that was harder than COVID.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

That was that's hard. 20 21 came through, yeah. That was co that was COVID. 21 was COVID, and 22 was just like the fucking rate rise.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah, that was just the that was the floods at the start of the year, then supplies went. That's when that's when the inflation started to take off and cogs were rising.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Inflation's key, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah, that was that was our biggest, that was our biggest uh nail in the coffin for us. We'd we'd expanded too quickly, for one, a multitude of factors, but the economic uh situation underpinned that was a pretty big value there. That we'd we'd grown too quickly, rates rose, and where stores were forecasted to be here, they were they were here because of that economic situation, and then that just spiraled, you know. We we're needing the we're pulling money from the things that were working, which were the trucks, yep, to keep all of these things afloat.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

And you just you just thought the trucks were the trucks, like fuck the shit.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah, well, we quite frankly, I hated them, you know. I hated them for years.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

The grease bus.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Grease wagon, we got grease wagon, yeah. Um, and I hated it, but it was uh through, you know, looking at the numbers and being like, well, this is the thing that's keeping us alive.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And uh it got to a point where it was like, well, what what are we doing here? You know, we're we're subsidizing the shops. We'd gotten to a point where we were employing people, like which is is great, and we enjoy that side of things, but we were just giving other people a job at that point and and paying the tax man. And we were we were we were suffering mentally and driving driving a business that wasn't really going anywhere. Yep. And it was reflecting there and having some hard chats and being like, well, what what does it look like if we just get rid of the shops? What does it look like? You know, what do we do? Yeah, and you know, I think we've been in the best state personally for the last eight months.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Bro, you look happy, you look healthy, so happy a bit fatter. Happy and healthy. Look at me. So, with that, obviously, when you've done that pivot change and and and push, there's a lot of guys out there in the world, a lot of people that follow me, guys in the dojo community, they're always skeptical about going into business, and they've just got this, you know, they've got zero to no understanding of what it takes to operate one. And it's fine because you know, when when I started going into business, I had no idea. When you started going into business, you had no idea, right? One thing I always reach out is like, you know, I always try to find or extract quick wins or little hints that you can give out to people that you found along your own way. So I think for for me, where I found your successes or your failures, even if there's someone opening up a brick and mortar, they have one store, they want to open their first store. Um heaps of stuff we can talk about. I can talk about for days. But one thing that I can't talk about very well, and something that I know that you guys can, is trucks. Someone's opened a food truck. Where the what the fuck should they do? Because there are guys that go like, I open a food truck, but I don't know where to I don't I have no location. What do I do? How do you find how do you get into these events? How do you get into how do you pop up, how do you get that site that's got, you know, a busy road? What do you what do you how do they do that? I can I can tell them how to build a truck, I can tell how to design it, but I can't tell them how to get the location.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

I would say that the the starting points of brand and the product. And if you don't have a great product, you better have a great brand and a great story behind it.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

I think getting into events and spots and all that sort of world, I think the answer is always no until you ask.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Well someone someone's gotta have the truck at Melbourne F1.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Someone's gotta do it, why not you? And so it only starts with a hey, can I? And uh for us, for example, for Melbourne, we asked if we could set the truck up at the Bathus 1000 the supercars. We got a green light for that, and then we got given the opportunity, crushed it, and then we said, What else can we do with you guys? The event organizers, obviously. And they've got the contract for the other biggest events in the country. One of that, one of those is the Melbourne F1.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And that's it. And doors open doors, right? Like, so if I'm pitching to a new I pitched uh City of Surf last week, and it's like I've done this, I've done that, I've done this, I've done that, blah blah blah. And if you're you you can you know name that you've done these big events and that opens doors for further along the way, but how do you get that first door open? And I think that is a great social presence. Like if think about if think about if you're running uh the food booking program for the F1 and uh hey, I'm Paul, I have a kebab truck. I've got his kebabs.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

It's good anyway.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

But uh, if you go if I was to look at at your business and I'm a combat truck, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Oh authentic, look the owner.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

And uh there's no social presence, there's nothing that can tell me that I'm you're gonna be able to help me sell tickets or bring a crowd. Why am I gonna pick you? Right? So you've got to look work backwards from there. You've got to provide value to the event. And if that value doesn't come through experience and knowing that you can serve people quickly, because event booking people they want to see that you can serve people. They they most of the how it works is they take a commission. So the busier you are, the the more money they make.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

So yeah, how's it how's it what do you mean by so do you pay rent when you go to these places?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Uh so you'll pay a either a site fee or a utilities fee, but that can be tied into the commission, and they there's different structures for different events.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Give me an example. Uh break it down.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

The F1 event, for instance, you might pay a power fee, you might pay a utilities fee for like your water access, you'll pay 28% commission on your sales. But they obviously want people who can pump volume because that means they're gonna make more money too. So if every if you're busier, you they're busier, and and that's how it works. And so you need to provide the value that you can handle the crowds, you can help maybe bring people to the event, and and that's what they're looking for. So if you have that mentality in mind and you work backwards, and you start to build your brand around that, you start to design your truck around that, that that's only going to help you service these bigger events, and that mightn't be the the space that you want to take. You might just want to be that food truck that's doing great kebabs on Parramatta Road.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Hey, my grandfather when he came to this country started a kebab shop. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

And fuck kebabs are good. I love kebabs. Did he actually?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Show Watama, yeah. I didn't know he actually called it kebab 22. Do you know what I mean? Do you want to know why? Why? So K C has 11 secret herbs and spices. Yeah, 22. And and funny enough, uh the joiner that actually built the shop, I met him like a year ago in passing. And uh he asked who I was, told him my name, told him where I was from. He goes, Do you know do you know this guy? I was like, Who's this guy? He goes, and he mentioned the name, which is my grandfather, and I was like, Yes. Like, how the fuck do you know him? You know, my grandfather used to build cool rooms as well for many years. And he goes, Oh, um, I built his kebab shop. I said, No way. So he goes, Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Listen to this. He turned around and has a copy of the plans.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Oh, for real? From how long ago?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

1984.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Wow. Wow, that's cool. That's the plans? That's a cool story, man.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah, that's the plans. But uh, yeah, look at that.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

That looks better than the plans we get in Petra.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I don't work there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I guess, I guess going back to that point of you want to look at you know what what are you designing your truck for or your trailer, and how efficient do you need to be, and how many people do you want to serve and how much money do you want to make? And that you you've really got to work backwards and then find out who you're gonna be. Uh, we were fortunate that we already had a brand and we already had a great product before we entered that market. Um, so we didn't find it too hard to open those first doors. But I mean, we've just sort of been a part of Gringo's, which is probably at the beginning of that journey now. And I would say that we've started that with a great TikTok and Instagram presence, and that has open doors. So that will uh that would probably be the way to really penetrate.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah, it's like you didn't really leverage Burger Head with Gringo's A, you just let that thing we had the playbook, yeah. The playbook, yeah, the playbook, but you gave it its organic great, you like let it take itself. So then you guys took a completely different approach with it. Um, and even the operating hours are a bit funny. What are they?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah, um, so our partner in that Richie, he uh he's he's uh doing a fucking cracker job, yeah, and very product forward, and like you know, that's sort of that now, huh? Oh man forward, he stole it. I like that's when you turn, uh put in the buyer, yeah. But uh the the product's amazing, right? And you start with creating the best thing that you bloody well can, and then you how do we feed the masses? And then you you might have to tone it down a wee bit here and there, uh, make a few changes to scale up. But uh once you get there, you know, it's just how do we serve more people?

SPEAKER_00 34:45

And with gringos now, what do you see gringos going into? Are you gonna go into trucks?

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

So now that they've they've set up their truck, they've got they've got things running. How do they what's your secret to handling a queue? Because like when I was at the Easter show this year, I seen I seen a couple really, really long queues for for these amazing I'm not gonna say who they were, but they're a whole bunch of new vendors, uh, great products, but they couldn't service the people. And then you guys, every time I walked past, you had like three, four people deep, and you had like if you had 15 or 20 people, they were just like gone. You would you you were clearing them. Like some guys were waiting an hour for for a burger, an hour and a half. And with you guys, I waited like 12 minutes in peak. What's what's that secret? Well, how how does someone do that?

SPEAKER_02 35:53

It's a uh finely tuned machine.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, that's uh it's a finely tuned machine, but like how how does someone get there?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

You need to know the bottlenecks of your your production. So our bottleneck before this show, you you saw this show this year at probably uh that was where we really refined it to our best uh our best sort of use case at the moment. But we knew that we couldn't we were capped at maybe like 2800, 2900 an hour on one point of sale.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

$2,900 an hour.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

$2,900 an hour.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah, well, I I love that. I'm capped, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

And so like we we couldn't really do much more than that, right? Yeah. Um But you knew your limit. The only way to do that was to either have another have a new truck or put our prices up. Yeah. Um, and so to increase that, you need another point of sale. So we we squeeze another point of sale in there, but then you need to work out can your team handle the extra trade in that little thing. And then you just got to work around and test and tinker.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

You know what it's bad to say because it's something it's food and it's so personal and it's got quality behind it with what we do, but you've almost got to look at them as a mobile factory, and how quickly can you get the sales in and then the products out, right? And then at each part, so for us, we've got four sections of the uh truck. You've got the point of sale, assembly, fryer, and grill. And obviously, point of sale, that's the people taking the orders, and then how quickly can they get the orders in, and then how quickly can the other three sections work together to get those orders out? Yep. And then call it the person on the grill. How many patties can he do on a 600-mil grill, a 900 or 1200? Okay, the 900 is a good amount. Put that grill in, and then call it all the inputs that go through him. He's got salt, he's got his tools, raw beef, cheese, and then the products go out to the next section. So then how quickly can you get cheese topped up, beef topped up, everything? Same with the fryer, same with the assembly. And so it's just that a finely tuned machine. And you know those games on the iPhone where it's like building a farmer, yeah, yeah, and you got the things that come in.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Well, even like they're building the burgers once. Let's get it.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah, and so it's literally just like all those little parts of the move. So if we were to put three-pointer sales, for example, in it, everything else would suffer and wouldn't be able to keep up. So we're capped at two there until you do a bigger truck, bigger grill, bigger assembly, and that's that.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Wow, and limiting limiting the people needing to move in and out of spaces and duck and dive to get things that they need. That just amplifies.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

And did you offer the full menu?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

It's a smaller menu than we used to run at the store, but there's enough variety that you can get what you want. We've got chicken, vegetarian beef, we've got hal, a couple beef burgers. Can cater to halal, dairy-free, gluten-free, vegan, vegetarian. Um, like that trailer's 10 square meters. We had seven people in there, so it was pretty tight, but yeah, they get it done.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

So limited menu, obviously. Um, and is that also that's obviously a big fundamental as well that someone should look at when they're doing a truck. They're gonna have variety, but limit the offering.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, like I went, I went to a how do you find that balance? I went well, for I guess I went to a deli yesterday, a sandwich place that's popping off, right? Cool. I think they had 16 sandwiches on the menu, but I waited 30 minutes for a sandwich. And I'm just standing there analysing, I'm like, you know what? If you look at your sales of those 16 menu items, four, five, they're gonna be popping out. That's what everyone's gonna be ordering. And then there's gonna be 11 that people are like getting in dribs and drabs. And if you look at your data, that's what we've done from day one, looking at data. And uh, we've built tools for our own business to help our ordering, and from that you can see what's selling, what isn't selling, and what can you get rid of. And then you can limit your menu to knowing what people expect. Start with, yeah, start with that bigger menu, maybe like see what works.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I'll call that chunking. Like you start at the top, and then you you you you chunk it and then you go you trim it down.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

100% and you know what's moving. Um, and a limited menu is beneficial at these events because you're gonna have less wastage. Yep. Uh, you're gonna have you know better turnover, and at this point in time, like we know we're gonna sell 75% beef burgers. So at these big venue uh events, we're just cooking beef, knowing that we're gonna get a beef burger coming through. That's not gonna go shit, it's gonna get sold. So the limited menu has a lot of a lot of uh benefits in that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Yeah, I've always I've always said this numbers don't lie.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah, stop it.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

You love it, it turns you on.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

But like that sandwich shop, for example, if they pull up their point of sale data and immediately called the bottom like four, and then the top, the ones that were left are 12, you could probably cut even more, or just look at the items and what doubles up, or what can you sub and double up, and that limits your wastage, your ordering. And the simple menus easier, you've got less decision paralysis for your team building it, and then your customers, it's easy for them to get their order to you because they're not overwhelmed by you're not standing there looking at 16.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Yeah, yeah. One last controversial question major food franchises like Mickey D's, Mackie Maccas, Hungry Jacks. You guys decided to go fucking head to head. You went you went head to head with the biggest franchise in the world. And you launched a burger that was literally a rip off their biggest selling burger.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

An homage and what an homage, like a yeah, yeah, we're showing respect.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, um well, I'm showing you how I seen it, and then you can tell me what you did. From what I believe, these guys went out and just seen someone else do it, a big chain do it, and then they said, you know what, we're gonna fucking do it too. So you went and you threw this bird, and then you know what, 50 people did it, but you guys are the only ones that cop some fucking real slack. Like, not slack, you guys copped heat. We did it well, right? So what what happened?

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, well, so it was always uh weekly or fortnightly specials in the business, so we'd always be doing those constantly to keep the uh it fresh and a new reason for the regulars to come back. And uh, well, the Big Mac's the most famous burger or food item I'd say in the world. And uh, I think one week we were either behind on it or it was like I just throw it together, like we were bit in the shit with time. So we uh dropped it and we called it the Better Mac. Simple, like better than the Big Mac.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

So, how do you call that Homage?

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Because it was better. It had better, it had better than it.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

You're respecting it, you're not respecting it, you say it's better, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Anyway, so we'd uh we'd posted that and people just saw the Big Mac ingredients, no our guess take on produce and knew it'd be good. So everyone got excited and things like that. I think we'd posted that uh Monday midday-ish, Monday mid-morning, and then the next day, Tuesday morning, I'm at the bank, um, sitting down with a banker, and then they they asked the question, something about liabilities and debts in the business. And I pulled up an email that I had some info on. Yeah, and top of the inbox was the letter from their legal team with the cease and assist. And uh I saw it, sent it to Josh. It was like, oh, Ruto. Um, we knew it was a bit of just like fluff up the tail and just sort of look scary, but it was nothing. And then we posted it on our social media, and once we'd posted it, we realized at the top it actually said confidential, blah, blah, blah, don't share or something. And then we're like, oh, all right.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

We've always been one to take a shit situation and try and flip it on its head for a bit of good. And uh that just went viral.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Yeah, so then yeah, so it was a cease and assist, and people just could not believe that so we. We had at that stage one or two stores. Two maybe? I think we had two. Yeah, we had two stores. So we had our entire store footprint of two. This company had more stores in the one suburb than we did in the our entire company's existence. And um, yeah, people just could not believe that they hit us with the cease and desist, and and then yeah, it went viral, picked up by radio stations, news stations, galores, yeah, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

And did you guys still run the burger?

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah, so their whole thing was you can't use the name, so you can't use the word Mac. So then we had to we deleted the post.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

We also name it.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

We put a post on Facebook saying we had to delete it. Some we need a new name. Yeah. And then someone said call it the cease and assist. And then we posted it the next day saying our new burger special cease and assist. And everybody loves a good David and Goliath sort of startle story.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

So it was they played in our favor.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

And did you have any other brands jump on? Was it KFC something?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Rushet's jumped. Sorry, KFC.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Oh, they commented. That was so funny. That just pushed it. We posted it, and then a rival competitor burger joint in the area we've always had a bit of back and forth banter with. They commented saying be original or something like that. Yeah. And then this place that when they opened, their name was Big Poppers, which is the name of a restaurant in the city. And Sorry Hills, yeah. And then that place sued them like within the first couple weeks of them opening. They actually had to change their name. Right. So they said to us, Be original. And I commented back saying, Didn't you used to be called Big Poppers? Yeah. And then KFC commented a meme underneath that's like a fucker. And then yeah, that went. I think that got almost as many likes, their comment as the thing, or it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

If you if you paid for the PR, like as a PR stone, if you tried to rec recreate that, we would have had to have spent 30, 40 grand. Wow. Like for the amount of eyeballs, for the we spent for Carl Sandalands over it. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Yeah, he called you up over it.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Yeah, Timbo, what are you doing, mate?

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Well, it was uh I remember we're we're doing a radio advert, uh a radio sort of interview, and they're like, Oh, you're gonna are you gonna see them in court? Yeah, fuck. Like, yeah, how? How? Um, and yeah, look, it did well. We had a bump of two, three weeks. We never heard from them again. They were a bit scared, I think. But um mate.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

With a couple I sent them a video of Josh Shadow Boxing.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

You guys have been in business for eight years, operating, running, trading, working, making money, losing money. What's one piece of advice you give to someone before they enter the business where they go into food, into food business?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Uh it sounds almost cliche, but the uh the customer always first, I guess. It's like we we had an idea of what we wanted Burgerhead to be when we first started, and what our idea was is actually so different to what it became. Because what we wanted to create was like a late-night bar, boozy, and drinking and all that sort of stuff open at midnight. And it quickly became a more kid-friendly, really casual approach. Uh we didn't have a kids menu, no high chairs, no nothing. And then within the first week, we got that question a million times and had to pivot. And it was always always ear to the ground, listening and trying to be what your customers want you to be in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Josh, educate yourself. Whether that is food the dojo, whether that's uh going to uni, whether it's working for free. Uh for me it was all three. Um I was lucky to have met you early on in my journey. Uh that had more experience in opening restaurants. So I was able to ask you pointers, but uh I'd gone to uni, I knew I wanted to open restaurants, knew numbers were gonna be important, went down the accounting sort of path and uh I worked for free in some of the greatest restaurants in the world. And that sort of imparted knowledge and understanding of the craft. I understood uh the fundamental aspect of business. I wouldn't say I was anywhere near a proficient no at all, but I had a decent understanding of what I needed to know. And then what I didn't know, I had people around me to ask how to plug those gaps. And uh I think the combination of the three of those with you know great business partners that sort of uh gave us a pretty good platform for success.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

So I would say one is know your customer, continually educate yourself and surround yourself with good people.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

100%.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

What was the biggest financial fuck up you ever made?

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Growing too quick.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Like how much did you burn? We gotta put a dollar for fuck it.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

No, we don't want to count that, man.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Just fucking say it.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

At least at least 700 grand, six or seven hundred grand in two years. It's gone. It's a house.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Finished, it's a house, it's gone paid off. House paid off finished. I don't know. I don't have one now. No, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yeah, it's gone. Yeah, ah, and we uh fortunate that we're uh young enough to recover from it, dumb enough to not let it bother us, and uh crazy enough to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Oh well, lads, it's been a pleasure to have you guys on here uh as the first episode. Thank you for blessing uh the episode with your presence and sharing some beautiful stories. I look I got to learn so much about you two today, more than I actually knew, and I can't wait to see what the future holds for you too. I really, really truly believe in your product from day one. Thanks, having appreciate it. Thank you. Do you have any last words? Any last words?

SPEAKER_02 49:54

We're looking forward to see your growth in the dojo and everything as well, and what you're giving back to all the people battling in the industry. Yeah, we're just trying.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

It's great to see you turning it into a business, what you've you've done for us for seven years. I know we've been a good couple of donkeys.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

We've did did a couple trials and errors. No, I guess it's all just about um for me, it's just doing something you love, you know. Like, I don't want it transactional anymore.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

If we if we asked you a year ago, like, could you have seen yourself meeting all the amount of people you met? I mean, Tom Brady for one, that was that was phenomenal, that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

You know, like and you it's taken you already to yeah, it's man, it was so funny. In March of 2023, I was just like I had I I started my MBA at the beginning beginning last year, and I was just like, how do I now like I just want to I just want to activate, I just I wanted to activate something. So then when when you're in a room with people that are from different industries, like different worlds, different problems, you start seeing things with a different different perspective. Like in for the past 12 years, all I've been doing is hospitality. That's it, and I love it, and I'd never change it. But I was limiting my growth, I guess. And the fact that I was only surrounded by those people all the time was like how much of my A game could I keep growing? Like I was I was at I'm I was top of the game. Like there's no one that could like I could compete with anybody, no problem. You know, yes, there's always room for growth, but was at the top of the game, could I talk shop? No problem, yeah, I could. But that creativeness, you sort of lack that creativeness. And when I surrounded myself with all these other people, and I seen that, you know, how I could go on a learning journey, I was like, fuck, why don't I bring that back to Hospo and take them on a learning journey? You know, and all the consulting that I do for like larger clients, like I'm talking about the Defense Force, for example, and other other other organizations, when when I've when I've worked on their projects and what I've delivered for them, if I turn around and translate that to someone like you guys when you were 22 starting out, how much fucking impact would that do? Yeah, it would like prepare you, it would propel you forward. It like literally, like if you're like a springboard, like here's here's your springboard, just jump. And and so that that's been the whole that's that was the whole concept of the dojo. And I always said worldwide. I said worldwide, worldwide. I just want to do it worldwide. And you got recognized in I got recognized in the middle of Brooklyn, and this morning I got off the phone from a lady in Nigeria, like Nigeria, Nigeria, man. Holy fuck, just got a catering company feeding a thousand people each weekend in Nigeria. And she's like, I need to optimize my kitchen.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

It's phenomenal, you know, that's wild, isn't it? That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Like, you know, and it's just like uh I I wanna I wanna I want to optimize my kitchen, I want to uh re-engineer my menu, I want to I want to grow my offering. It's the same problem, everyone fucking goes through the same problems, you know, but there's just not there's just not enough people help like I I think you know there's a big stigma around consulting, and that's why I don't like calling consulting, I like calling it mentorship. Because I want to give you the tools and resources for you to be able to do it time and time again. Where a consultant comes in, does some change, adds his flair, the minute he leaves, it's gone. Yeah, you know, expect and restaurant consultants always have this bad taste in their mouth. And I I've seen it when someone says I'm a restaurant consultant and they're fucking probably a great guy, the restaurant owner's like, what a dickhead. It's like, well, I don't want someone to say that about me. You know? So if someone goes, Oh no, I don't need you to mentor me, I'm like, that's fine. You want me in there for growth and strategy, we can do that. And it's something that the industry's never seen before. It's a different, it's a different angle, it's a different approach, it's something new. It's not for everybody. I'm not I can't I can't help everyone. Um, but yeah, definitely, you know, in 12 months to see it, to see it go from I I only actually started in October to be honest, September, October. Leading up to it, it was just me just practicing. Really, I was just like, what the fuck am I doing? Who who am I? Still working it out. October I started, and I only really launched the dojo to be fair, in February of this year. So from February to where are we now, May?

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Phenomenal growth.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Growth. So no, it's it's it's great, and I think you know, big part is building a personal brand, definitely. There's anything, any next step, next step for you guys, I'd say just work on your individual. I think you guys are inseparable. So I think you guys could actually do a like joint co-brand, it'd be fucking really cool. Like a Hamish and Andy of the hospital world. You know, like honestly, because it it's you guys are inseparable. Everything I've seen you guys operate for the past how many eight years, and I don't see this. You guys have made money together, you've burnt money together.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Burnt more than we made.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

But and you're still next to each other, right? Yeah, and you rock up for each other. So I reckon like work on work on trying to try try showcase the world more of you guys, and uh you'll see it project forward. But yeah, thank you for being on the show.